What does computing education look like around the world?

This week we're taking a mini tour to look at the state of computing education in different parts of the world. James, Divya, and guests discuss the similarities, differences, challenges, and opportunities of delivering computing education in England, Kenya, India, and Iraq.

Full show notes:
https://helloworld.raspberrypi.org/articles/what-does-computing-education-look-like-around-the-world

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Kevin Muriuki: 0:03

You will encounter people who are in the job market, who have never used a computer.

Dr. Nadia Al Aboody: 0:09

We had some families where they have only one phone, but they have, for example, three children.

Divya Joseph: 0:15

It's a rocket flying in space and they get so excited.

James Robinson: 0:22

Welcome back to Hello World a podcast for educators, interested in Computing, and digital making. I'm James Robinson, Computing educator and professional development Pioneer.

Divya Joseph: 0:33

Hello, I'm Divya Joseph, ex-software engineer, and educator. Currently, I'm managing the formal education, vertical for India at the Raspberry Pi Foundation. As ever, we really value your comments and feedback, which you can share at h elloworld.cc/podcastfeedback, that's helloworld.cc/podcastfeedback.

James Robinson: 0:58

We wanted to start by asking the question: What does Computing education look like around the world? Now, clearly in 25 minutes were unlikely to be able to explore Computing everywhere. But with the help of some amazing guests, I hope we can explore how Computing is being adopted in a few of the areas around the world. Now Divya, I'm really familiar with Computing education in England where we have a national curriculum which we call Computing. We have non-formal opportunities, like Code Club, where Learners can learn Computing outside the classroom. How does this compare to Computing Education in India?

Divya Joseph: 1:31

That's a really good question. So, broadly education in India is both a central as well, a state responsibility, which means that everyone is thinking about education all the time. But that also means that each state is very different when it comes to implementation of policies and initiatives and programs. So, when it comes to Computing education as a discipline, it's actually taught a fair bit in undergrad but you might have some sort of Preparatory courses in school. Again, depending on the state, you are in the kind of school that you are in, whether in a government school or a private school or the type of board that your school follows, you could have a completely different experience. Just as an example, If you are in a private school Under Central board education, in Grade 9, that is aged 14 to 15. You could be learning about how to create textual communication or how to keep create audio-visual communication. You could be learning about Online safety. And then, when you are in age 16 to 18, you could learn anything from python to advanced python to databases in SQL. On the other hand, if you're actually in a government School, you might actually get to use a computer for the first time at the age of 16 and maybe a little bit of computing education, depending on the type of educator you have access to. Now in India, one of the key things that have been happening over the last two years, has been the launch of the National Education policy, and that's very critical because it essentially says that all children across school education, should learn, mathematical thinking, and computational thinking, and this is essentially to prepare them for jobs, that will involve artificial intelligence and data science or machine learning and to formally introduce coding as a subject from grade 6 onwards. Now again, this this new education policy was launched in 2020, two years down the line different states are in different stages. So I think what we probably need is another podcast one year later to really see where the states have gotten to when it comes to launching this coding curriculum. So, so yeah, so there are lots of things kind of happening in India. How does that compare to where Computing Education is in England at this point.

James Robinson: 3:48

I mean, I think lots of what you've described are is really familiar in the sense that we've had this kind of this sort of moment a few years ago, where there was a shift in focus and and Computing, sort of replaced what was previously called IT. That also reminded me thinking about terminology, because I think there's loads of language around this. So I think about Computing, which is the, the sort of the word that I used to describe the broad subject. We might talk about digital literacy or IT. You've already mentioned computational thinking, and all of these terms, might mean something slightly different to different people or have a different kind of prominence or Focus within different parts of the world. So I think that's a real challenge for us as well as we start to think about what Computing looks like more globally. Yeah, I think I think there are some real real comparisons and I've been really interested sort of working with you over the last couple of years seeing this sort of this slight nuances in Focus. I think like so there's a really key focus in India is, or my perception is that there's a lot of focus on jobs and careers and really important part of what education is for. And while that's definitely the case in England as well. There is also its maybe less to a lesser extent, maybe in some ways. So I think that's, that's really interesting. Fortunately, you our listeners, don't have to listen to Just Divya and myself talking about our experience of where we work. We're joined by some fantastic guests today to help broaden our Horizons and at least explore a few other parts of the world. We're really fortunate today to be joined by two Fantastic guests. Firstly, Dr. Nadia Al Aboody is head of computer system department at the southern Technical University in Iraq. She is also the Raspberry Pi Foundation National partner volunteering to bring more clubs and dojos to Iraq. Nadia, how would you summarise Computing education in Iraq and your work to support learners?

Dr. Nadia Al Aboody: 5:49

Yeah. Hi James and thank you for the invite. Well computer science in Iraq. It starts in a little bit late. So for example, primary schools. We don't have an ICT, curriculum and children, they don't get to know what is a computer or how to deal with computers. Most of the children. They use their mobile devices. They use their iPads but they don't have a proper curriculum base for ICT. They start to learn about computer science in middle, in secondary school and then High School. However, most of their learning is based on books, reading, memorising but not actually doing and creating programs, or creating games or stories. So and that's why I brought back Code Clubs and CoderDojos from the UK to Iraq, to give those children, the opportunity to invent, to think, to create. And eventually to, hopefully, to develop an ICT, curriculum for primary schools. We have universities, obviously, we have a computer science, bachelor, degree, and and we have different Academy academic courses, but, like I said, it's started in a way like, longer or in a longer age group that's a degree which starts at University, where this is where they will actually work on computers, and, and go to labs.

James Robinson: 7:39

So there isn't necessarily yet a like a formal kind of countrywide Statewide kind of school-focused curriculum. It's not necessarily prescribed in that way. Is that is that? This is the case.

Dr. Nadia Al Aboody: 7:54

Yes.

James Robinson: 7:55

Which is interesting because I think where in England, we do have that mandated curriculum. I think India where we've had that for a couple of years now. Kenya it's just being introduced and Iraq, like is not quite there. You're still sort of at the advocacy and kind of framing what that kind of looks like maybe stage. But it's interesting to kind of see those different points.

Dr. Nadia Al Aboody: 8:16

Yeah. And it's like for schools like we have a primary schools like we have private schools and they want to introduce ICT curriculum and they want to do more computer science or STEM education, but like, but it's not like in National curriculum focusing on using computers or using digital making with the STEM education.

Divya Joseph: 8:41

Also joining us is Kevin Muriuki, Edtech Project Manager for Team4Tech Kenya. He's a digital literacy Advocate and shares his passion with anyone who'll listen. Kevin welcome to the show. How does Kenya compare to other parts of the world in terms of computing education? Am I right in thinking that there's actually a new curriculum that is launched?

Kevin Muriuki: 9:05

Thank you Divya. Yes. So unfortunately we have found out that we actually need to introduce Computing at a very early age in our schools. However, it just recently launched as early as 2017. So it's called the competency-based curriculum. So, ultimately everything you and James were discussing is what is trying to be accomplished In our new curriculum, that is computational thinking, like critical thinking skills, design thinking, like helping a learner connect with themselves wholesomely, instead of just focusing with the reader regurgitate method that has been there for, so very long. That's what was happening in Kenya. So presently, I think mostly with our work with other sub-communities. It's all about sending digital literacy skills, which are actually going to empower Young Learners to actually connect with the 21st century world for, when I was listening to your introduction when you are talking about different places in India where you have underprivileged people, who will maybe encounter technology at a very later stage in life. Trust me in Kenya, you will encounter people who are in the job market who have never used a computer and that is a very big shift, because at the end of the day right now, with the kind of world, we are living in technology is everywhere. And even in education, technology has put itself in there, so firmly that you cannot work, For example, work from home, without a computer, you cannot do some of your lessons without an internet connection. You cannot do some of your work if you don't understand Basics in coding. So ultimately that's what I am very passionate about. That's what I try to push forward, like, everyone should learn coding. It's not just about the job market. It's can you do Basics right now, which actually require coding? Sometimes, even when using something as basic as Excel, it sounds basic to someone. But trust me, there's someone out there who doesn't even know what Excel is we were gone for. Let's talk about Microsoft Word. That is still a challenge to some people. And I feel like as talking about something like digital literacy, Computing, IT whatever it's called depending on where you are. It's very important, especially in this present world. Yeah.

James Robinson: 11:26

I had a sort of follow-up question or point to that. I think one of the things that I could be Kevin we've been fortunate, we've had a few conversations prior to the podcast episode. So I know a little bit about the sort of a context in which you're working, and one of the things that struck me, was that in the UK where our curriculum starts at age 5, and we talk a lot about the disparities between what different Learners have experienced, some Learners have had like, you know, smartphones or access to laptops and computers. And you know, there's some variability of the experience there but I think the Baseline if we were to compare like just the limited formative experience that some Learners might have had compared to the formative experience the Learners in Kenya would have had with technology. They're Worlds Apart, right? There's a real challenge, a real kind of thing that we have to. I think we can't just leave it to chance. We've got to deliberately and explicitly Target How we support Learners in that space? Does that makes sense. Is that, is that right?

Kevin Muriuki: 12:32

Let me take you a bit back and let's talk about Covid-19 and I know maybe they have some listeners will be, let go not this again. But the truth is Covid-19 really exposed the world in a very big way. For example in Kenya just like I think any other part of the world we have two systems, we have government school systems and we have private school systems. During covid, private school systems were able to transition onto online learning but for government school systems, which ironically enough should be the ones which have more structure more support, some schools ended up closing, and I'm talking about schools that get annual grants to support their functioning. Right now, we actually had features on the news where some schools are turned into Farms like teachers were using some of the classrooms like to rear chickens and stuff like that. So you can imagine we're talking about Learners who for almost one or two years. Never went to school. But then you also have another group of Learners who continued learning as if nothing happened. Are you sure that these two Learners when they meet later in life, they will they will have like the same access to different things. I don't think so. So I think it's for us now to come up and understand like the Dynamics and the context that we're living in, not to just assume that we all have the same privileges. We don't. And like you truthfully say, like I let me talk about myself. I got my first smartphone when I got into maybe campus that was, I was like what I was 20 21, 22 years old. Right now, they're kids in different parts of the world. Who, once they turn like 2, 3, 4, 5, they already using smartphones. And that is also true in Kenya. However, we will go to other parts of Kenya where you'll find that there are people who have not even seen smartphones and I'm not talking about kids, I'm talking about adults and that's the kind of real situation that we find ourselves in. So our conversation needs to be whatever material, whatever content we are curating. Whatever lesson plans, we are developing they need to put into understanding that you will encounter all levels, not just to go with the assumption that just because I know the basics or the region I am coming from, has access to the basics. That's going to be the same case everywhere and as an educator, I think that's also something that is always at the head of your mind. Like, are you making, whatever you're making, whatever content you are putting forth. Is it just this particular audience? Or are you making content that would be used Beyond you beyond your environment, will it be used to help other Learners? Or are you just making a one off project that once you're done, you're done? That's it? Yeah.

James Robinson: 15:24

Yeah that's a really good point I guess like you know because it like differences in educational experiences and educational different, disadvantages exist, like everywhere in any setting, but actually the range it you know I think we need to make sure that we're really thinking about what that range of experience's are to make sure that we are catering and how we think about Computing education for everybody. What does that look like? I mean, I know Divya, You've got, you've been doing some work on on like, educational disadvantage as well within India. And sort of working out how we can support groups that maybe haven't had those sort of more privileged experiences, how does what Kevin's describing compared to your experience in India.

Divya Joseph: 16:05

So in India it was quite similar as well as I think a little dissimilar as well. So you had children from lower socioeconomic backgrounds kind of borrowing smartphones from their parents and kind of using it for around 1 to 2 hours a day, rationing the internet and we have had sort of interactions with children where maybe the older sibling, or the older male sibling, would probably get access to the phone for longer than the younger siblings. But at the end of the day, children kind of somehow managed to get by the sort of two years. And then of course, there were other Learners who probably had access to an entire device and they were able to use it 24/7 to access online learning were able to sort of learn coding on the side just as a hobby because they had access to it. So this is that entire sort range. Now, during the pandemic, we were already working with some nonprofit organisations in India that catered to children from marginalised communities. And we actually tried to teach them scratch and HTML at this time. And one of the things that we did was we kept our trainings for these children, very short. We said, look, they don't have internet access for two to three hours. So can we just do 30 minute sessions? We also used phone friendly application. So for example, we used code Club World which is one of our products, which is can be accessed on the phone is easy to use on the phone drag-and-drop, when it comes to HTML, we use an app called Repl.it It which is again, usable on the phone. So we try to sort of make it as easy as we possibly could. But of course, there were still children who we were, never able to reach and even today, when we go into these communities where these nonprofits work, we can see that there is a big gap. Like there are children who did the coding course with us, who are actually now genuinely interested in computer science, and are in grade 10 or 11 now, and they want to take Computing as a subject as if it's available to them or they want to learn graphics and, you know, Visual Arts going forward and are really interested in technology as well. So, yeah, there's a whole range. And I think India is and also like very similar to Kenya and maybe a little bit of England as well where there's a lot of difference. Like the haves have a lot and the Have Nots probably don't have anything, right? So yeah, so that's been my experience as well. I think, one point, I think Kevin that you were talking about was how you know things like Microsoft Word or Excel, and these are things that, you know, not everyone will know. But at the same time these are important skills to learn when it comes to digital literacy and I think like, in India what happened for a long time was everyone was just focusing on that. Like, can we get our children to learn Word? Can we get our children to learn paint? And there was just a lot of focus on that and children thought that that was computer like that for them was called computer class. Right. And so, have you seen that in your experience as well in schools where people children are just confusing with what they're learning. They're like, okay, this is computer science education, I am learning a computer. Like is that your experience as well?

Kevin Muriuki: 19:21

Oh man, I think that when you are speaking, I was like, you know, India sounds like Kenya so maybe it is Kenya. It just that it's on a different place geographically because ultimately one, let's talk about the similarities in the context in which you're delivering this content. Yeah, Exactly. You bear in mind that there are some participants who won't have access to 2, 3 hour access to Internet and you have to find out a creative way of delivering these sessions still, but making sure that you're not So resource heavy on the participants. Number two, today's Kenya when you're doing like your initial computer called computer packages before you go off to Campus. What do you do? You just do the basics in Microsoft Office and if you're lucky enough, if you're lucky enough to do a bit of publishing. And you're considered to be a tech Guru apparently. So, yeah, trust me. Even in Kenya that still a misnomer. Like someone thinks that just because they've done their Microsoft packages they're now they can now go out there and Conquer Tech. Yeah, so very very similar.

James Robinson: 20:37

I was thinking as both of you were talking there about like Divya, you talked a lot about sort of mobile access and how important it was that devices with mobile friendly. And I think you know, Kevin you kind of alluded to that a little bit as well. When you talked about smartphones and I think one of the things that for me, one of the reflections on on the sort of the pandemic period was I think it opened people's eyes little bit to think about the fact that when we talk about digital literacy, I think there is sometimes an assumption that because kids maybe here have quite pervasive access to smartphones and they can use their smartphones to do all sorts of things. And actually we don't need to worry about their digital literacy. Because they're digital literacies fine, they're getting that education, passively from the device and then they turn up at school and then you ask them to use like a trackpad, right? Or a keyboard, or a mouse and just those really fundamental skills for some students can be really lacking. And so, I think Kevin you were both in their conversation. We're talking about packages and software, but there's almost a step before that, right? You know, for Learners that maybe who their entire experience of digital Technologies is very mobile driven that the first time you sit down with a computer and and you're having to like, you know, work with a physical keyboard where you can't swipe your words or whatever or you're having to move a mouse around and do that. Hand-eye coordination piece, that learning might not take a lot of time to get over, but it is a step that we have to get right before they can access the future learning and I don't know whether that kind of rings true or whether you have any thoughts on that either of you?

Kevin Muriuki: 22:24

I'll probably chime in because this is something that has really picked my interest in that. I think it's because there is a difference between entertainment and learning. There is a place where they meet, there is a place where they meet and it's very important. However, I would not consider a child playing a game, okay, all the time because I'm also an advocate for playful learning. So, how do I don't want to like shoot myself in the foot here. But there is a place were playful learning intersects education. However, when you're just using this digital devices to play games and stuff. I feel like unless that is the motivation or the purpose of your use of the device, then I will not consider that learning. And the reason being, exactly like you put it. For example, I think I worked, I worked with an organisation recently that during the pandemic and after they realise the importance of having their Learners have smartphones and they give them smartphones. The problem was some of the students use their smartphones as intended to learn to load battles and use them as hot spots for their computers or their learnings at home. However, a large another part of the group also now, had a way to communicate with their significant others. I, they have them. Let's not act like they don't. They have this boyfriends, girlfriends and stuff and they got up to all kinds of Mischief. So ideally, it's also for us as Educators and even as guardians or even education, voyagers and stuff, whatever, we call ourselves to create that understanding for the Learners, like, there is a difference between when you're using these tools for entertainment and we're using these tools for learning. Or maybe it's even for us to create a situation where they can actually use take these devices for learning or entertainment because at the end of the day we are there are adults. We are there people who actually have some experience and we should be the facilitators of learning, you know. Ultimately maybe this learner's are like just having fun with my friends but then they don't understand the destructive power of the kind of Technology they have in their house. So those are my thoughts.

James Robinson: 24:51

I would I would hundred percent Agree with you. That, you know, I think there is lots of value and kids are using their devices quite playfully and they might be learning about how the interface works, or how to take photographs. They are picking up a range of like different digital skills, but they're not necessarily doing so in like a structured way. And I like, I come from a formal education, background, my I'm a teacher, right? That's my training work experience. So I again, I mean, I'm an advocate for playful learning but I also think like, like, you need to be able to shape Sometimes and nudge, even if it's just very gently them in the right direction, but you were saying about how to use a tool for kind of constructive conversation rather than, you know, kind of illicit kind of Mischief kind of conversations, right? It's, it's kind of shaping that learning and that's really important. We so, you know, we're just talking there about educational disadvantage as well. And the fact that we saw this particularly through the pandemic, but the idea that there are some groups of Learners within Kenya and in general. So in the UK that have the we're learning was not interrupted, they had far more opportunities and others that just really kind of missed out on learning because of either their access to technology or the sort of the school infrastructure. How does that compare to Iraq?

Dr. Nadia Al Aboody: 26:15

Well, it affected, especially with the Covid it affected our students, a lot. I mean, it's not just like the the availability of devices. The infrastructure for internet for electricity, we had some families where they have only one phone, but they have, for example, three children in school and they are, they are missing a lot. We don't have the platform where the children can have their proper learning. Schools and teachers, they only like they used let's say a kind of a social media platforms, like, for example, Telegram, WhatsApp, and they are providing their education through that, that programs and and children, they missed a lot. And, you know, it's not easy to make a child sit for an hour with with the mobile phone, listening to a teacher and they missed that contact with their teachers. So families with children would fight on that device because they have a lecture on the same time the same day, so and also our teachers they are not equipped properly for dealing with online teaching. Even at University we struggled a lot the first year because it happened so sudden we are not prepared. We don't have the the proper device, has the proper infrastructure and the proper training and yeah I guess universities were luckier than schools because we managed to have like to bring our teachers with training and provide online training for them. I mean we've been like we would have a workshop at 2 a.m. for our teachers so that they can provide their students with the technology for the next day. To reach Teachers, Primary School teachers or even high school teachers, that is something we couldn't do we didn't have the facility or we didn't have the reach for the Department of Education to bring those Educators and give them that training and now when schools are going back to teaching, hopefully they understand the importance of having that set of skills for both teachers and children. And and I think the local Department of Education in Maysan where I live now, they really understand because when we approached them that we want to work with schools, we want to work with the children and we want to work with the Educators they approved it. When we approached them before covid, they said, no, you can't work we don't have the facilities, we don't have the places and we don't have the resources. Now, they understand that us as, as a partner or as a Dojo or as a Code Club. We have the resources, we have the technology and we are offering it for them for free and they just have to show up.

Divya Joseph: 29:44

So, Nadia, I think one of the sort of very important points that you just mentioned. Was you talked about the teachers, right? And the teachers confidence, to be able to teach Digital literacy or to be able to teach online learning during the pandemic. And so I wanted to probably understand from Kevin and maybe also from you Nadia, like, when it comes to capacity of teachers in, to be able to teach Computing education, where is Kenya at, or where is Iraq, at this point. So, just as an example in India, a lot of computer science teachers don't have a background in computer science. They're actually, science or maths teachers. And they've been asked to teach an ICT subject. And that happens happens very often in India and I just want to understand how similar or different it is in your context.

Kevin Muriuki: 30:33

Like I said, I think India is just in the different geographical location than Kenya because that's exactly what you get in Kenya because ultimately when for us like the teachers were training IT or ICT as it's called are science teachers and that's just it like the most I can do maybe is understand how do these systems work, but they have no clue as to how to teach them. No, clue how to deliver like a lesson in ICT. And ultimately, even our workers Team4Tech, we're trying to work as much with our partners to just groom that in them, like whatever project you're doing. Mainly its to assist the Educators, or the teachers to gain those skills to upskill there. There are others as well, because ultimately, like, recently, we've just done our training the teachers where we did Scratch for the first time for most of them. And as we speak, like I said, CBC, which was introduced, the competency-based curriculum was introduced to help bridge that gap of technology and the modern education system and some of the teachers because they have no experience what they do, once they get to that section, in the curriculum, they just skip it. And now, the reason why they are skipping it is because even the the examiners the examining bodies in Kenya, they also don't know how to examine the subject. We even talked to some government officials and they are like we put it in there because we know it's important but we have no clue how to teach it. So that is the kind of state that we find ourselves in like ultimately something like Scratch which as you were talking earlier about Basics. Scratch is one of the easiest Programming languages or programming platforms You can use to learn programming but then in an environment where Basics and digital literacy are non-existent something that you may refer to as basic becomes rocket science. That's the environment we find ourselves.

Divya Joseph: 32:41

Yeah, and I think that's the experience that we've had as well. So we are running this sort of teacher training program where we were trying to train around thousand government School teachers and we're starting off with Scratch and we do one of our projects we'll trial one of our projects, which is lost in space and it's literally rocket science for them because it's a rocket flying in space and they get so excited because it's the first time they're learning anything to do with actual programming and they like, yes, this is easy. But now I have to go and teach it to my children. That's going to be hard. And so, there's a lot of these things, right? There's also like skills but the same time they have don't confidence to be able to learn this thing. And to feel that this is an important skill for them to learn and to pass it on. Nadia, I have you had the same experience as well with Educators in Iraq.

Dr. Nadia Al Aboody: 33:28

Yeah, actually we have the same experience and it's fascinating that we are here from different countries and we are facing the same challenges and yes. In Iraq, they introduced Scratch last year for elementary, secondary school and high school. And I was really, really happy to see Scratch and when my child, like, when my son came back, I and I saw his computer science book, I said, yeah, this is Scratch. And this is amazing and your getting to start learning and because my son was one of the Ninjas in our Dojo. He said, Mom, this Scratch is not the same as your Scratch. As Scratch is the same everywhere. He said, no, the way they are teaching are the way they are addressing it, even the projects Or the activities that we are doing is not the same and that triggered a little question mark. How how do those teachers understand Scratch? Do they actually understand the cap has the capacity of using Scratch for creativity and yeah, I guess we need to do more training for the Educators in Iraq. We start with all the volunteers, we offer training of trainers. But those are for for the, for our volunteers and hopefully, hopefully by 2023 that we will develop training for the Educators and to have an agreement with the Department of Education to offer that training, to, to the Educators. Because like you said, Divya it is they don't have a computer. Like, they don't have a computer science background, they are either math or science teachers, cause for like in Iraq, when you have a degree a bachelor's degree in computer science, you're not allowed to teach at schools, you have to have like an education certificate in order for you to teach at our schools.

Divya Joseph: 35:39

I was just going to say that's actually very similar in India because you can't actually just teach because you have a degree in some subject. You also have to have a bachelor's in education. So a BEd is what it's called and you need to have that in order to be a teach, to be able to teach in school. So you need that and subject wise knowledge and additional knowledge to basically be a teacher for life. So it's really not a great career opportunity for a lot of people. And that's also, I think some of the things that we're seeing in India that, you know, not too many young people actually going into education or wanting to be Educators unfortunately. Yeah.

James Robinson: 36:19

I wanted to sort of pitch in there, and I think that experience that you've all shared actually Like I think there's some real similarities there with England as well, right? We know we've had a Computing Curriculum, we've been working on this for a number of years now, but it is still the case contextually that most of the people doing the teaching don't have a background in Computing. Now, we've had a lot of ICT teachers there, but those the more technical aspects of the subject, the coding, the programming, the algorithmic thinking, the data, all of that side of things is really new to many teachers. And so, you know, we've had this great big effort and lots of funding to try to shift the dial on that and move Educators into a space where they are able to teach the full range of computing. But I think it is interesting that that there is that kind of similarity. We might be at different places but I think where we've started from is maybe quite quite similar. And the other observation I wanted to make. And it was something that I think Kevin said was the that point about when there when they first get something working and your teachers, feel that adrenaline that dopamine here, that like excitement, I did that, I made that work and I think for all of us it's important no matter how experienced we are with computer science to not lose sight of that excitement that our subject our discipline. These skills that we're giving that we're empowering students with that feeling that it elicits, I think it's really important not to lose sight of.

Kevin Muriuki: 37:51

I actually want to address that question of how do we get more Educators to teaching STEM subjects because that's essentially what it is all about. I think some years back, we had a discussion around a group of Educators. We were talking about introducing robotics, in secondary schools, basically high school, and the one fundamental thing that we did was focus on making Learners excited about STEM and ultimately the broader question is how to make guards excited about step? Because I feel like when you start there at the learners level, like when you have Learners, who are excited about a particular subject, when they grow up, even if it's going to do BEd in stem or BEd in ICT, it will be more exciting because I feel like that's where the challenge is. Like, how do we make someone or a learner excited about tech and eventually, how do you make a learner excited to share their knowledge of Tech because that's essentially what we're doing. As Educators in the Edtech industry. Like we share our passion in technology and the more that passion we can share and channel it to our Learners. The more Educators or participants in this conversation, we can have because ultimately, if you don't do it with the Learners, once they grow up things, just do something else because we won't be here forever and ultimately their learners we are grooming are the ones who take our place. So, are we passionate enough to impart them with that power that they can actually do this that they can help other people gave their knowledge. Like Nadia said, her son was like this doesn't look like scratch. What if he looks at the way they do it at the CoderDojo goes back to school and then tells his friend you know? Okay maybe this is not the same way I've taught at home, but just with the same thing and this is how you can do it. I feel like you already have like a champion for for STEM, a Champion for Scratch. A champion who will grow up to be, maybe an indicator in STEM with, that's what we should be Aspiring for pushing our passion forward to others and seeing what what that can can do.

Divya Joseph: 40:13

Yeah, that's a really good point about just building people's confidence when it comes to dealing with this sort of new subject. And that's something that we're kind of figuring out every single day, like, how do we talk to Children about computer science? Why is it important to learn? How is it interesting? Where all in their daily lives do they use it and then using a similar-ish language when talking to teachers as well, helping them understand that they can learn it, and they can pass it on and be excited about it. And I think that's maybe one fourth of the battle won, and then there's sort of the technical aspects of, okay? Like now let's get into actual programming or Computing education. See what else is out there but yeah I think there's a lot of things that are happening across the world and it's really great to see that all the different countries in spite of the different stages that they are at. Some how, the challenges are the same but the same time the successes are also quite similar and it's really great to see that there are all of these new initiatives that are being rolled out. And from that, I just kind of wanted to understand that we've talked a little bit about school education. But in your experience, in Kenya and Iraq are there out-of-school programs that actually bring access to Computing education to children and just as an example and I think we have done a previous podcast on this where we talk to a maker space based in Goa. That was a really interesting one for me because they're not too many maker spaces in India. The very few, but this was one of the ones that was, you know, accessible to children across India and two adults as well. And so are they similar programs that are running in Kenya in Iraq, that give access to children to these programs.

Dr. Nadia Al Aboody: 42:05

For Iraq, we have, we have several Makerspaces and we have a lot of initiatives. However, like most of those maker spaces because they need to be sustainable, they charge for the access for, for the courses, for the training and of course, we have CoderDojo, Code Club. They are free for the children to access. So I think we are making the balance between a paid courses and a free courses for the children. And this is what give a variety of opportunities for, for all children. For those who can afford going to more advanced courses or for those who want to start learning. And if I want to, like, if I want to add the future of computer science and machine learning with robotics it's moving, really fast and our Educators maybe they are they are a little bit behind or they are they are struggling or they have a lot of challenges to to come forward. For the children it's really fast because they are born and raised in that technological world. And this is what I like about the resources that the Raspberry Pi Foundation provide it's it's based on self-learning. Its, they are giving the opportunity for those children to start from the beginning and then Advance on their learning and then they are developing this self-learning scale. Which in my personal opinion, I think this is the most important skill in the current in the current world or in the current time because if you want to if you want to advance, if you want to go, if you want to take that step to the Future, you need to start narrowing your, your like your skills, and your, your reach and you need to teach yourself. This is the path that I want to take. I want to take, I wanna start with with learning Scratch, but I want to do web design or I want to do game design and all that is there in the resources. So yeah, I think this is this is this is a point that we can make up for the lack of Educators. But in the same time we have to work more with them to enable them and Empower them with the skills that our children need.

James Robinson: 44:40

And Kevin, What was what was your thoughts on that question as well?

Kevin Muriuki: 44:42

So presently my main concern and even I can see when James' smiling like my work presently at Team4Tech is supporting Kenya Connect to build out their makerspace. So we are actually setting up a Makerspace in the area I told you about Wamunyu in Machakos Kenya. So, ideally, it's to offer a space where Learners can gain access to technology and ideate as much as possible. And the beautiful thing about the kind of makerspace that Kenya connect, our partner, is building, is that it encompasses everything? It has a library, it has tinkerers Makerspace there's even a carpen, they are going to work on a carpenter's shop, they have just making sessions, so they're trying to make it like a One-Stop shop for the community. So you're not just going to learn Tech. You're going to learn everything. And the other thing about Kenya is that we are kind of like, on Africa Tech Hub. So, like we actually have a lot of makerspaces in various places around Kenya. However, like Nadia said, the problem is always about access and making sure that people can utilise these spaces some of these spaces are paid. Some of these places are free but to actually get a place where it's fully sufficient and people can actually tap into that. I think most people are still working with that and I believe that since I presently I'm in a position to be able to support this one makerspace with partnership with Raspberry Pi, I'm going to try and do my best to make sure that we make it as accessible as possible. Because ideally, it's all a question about access. Can we provide a space where someone has an idea, whether it's creative, whether its technical, whether it's mathematical or science, can they come there and figure it out? Because once we give someone a platform, you have no idea where they can go with that kind of access.

James Robinson: 46:44

We talked a lot about kind of exciting and giving agency to our Learners and to our Educators. And I think the other aspect of that that we, you know, mustn't forget is also I think parents are really important and, you know, government and Charities and other partners. I think if we can engage and work with and excite and enthuse all of those different parts of this ecosystem, we build momentum and that momentum, whether it comes from the parents, from the Learners, from above with government or whatever. I think it just it just builds that sort of pressure to kind of make sure this keeps happening. And I think you know all of those things contribute towards this progress in computer science education across the world. If you have a question for us or comment about our discussion today than you can email via podcast@helloworld.cc Or you can tweet us at @HelloWorld_Edu, my thanks to Nadia and Kevin for sharing their time, experience and expertise with us today. So Divya, what did we learn today?

Divya Joseph: 47:49

So I think the main thing I learned today was that India is Kenya and Kenya is India. But really, that, you know, context are so similar in different parts of the world. And I think that was a very important takeaway for me. I think the other one was really was when it comes to Computing education or giving access to children to learn Computing. We know that Educators in schools are critical but so are places outside of schools like for example, makerspaces or parents themselves. And I think those are things that we should be thinking about when we think holistically about computer science, right? And what about you?

James Robinson: 48:25

Well, for me, I guess I just learned how much I didn't know about Computing around the world.

Divya Joseph: 48:30

That's not true, but okay.