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What role does philosophy have in computing education?

• Raspberry Pi Foundation • Season 5 • Episode 2

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We're excited to be back, bringing you conversations about computing education. For our first episode, we're exploring an emerging field in computing and how we might approach it with students. We'll be asking our expert guests, "What role does philosophy have in computing education?"

Full show notes:
https://helloworld.raspberrypi.org/articles/what-role-does-philosophy-have-in-computing-education

Amy Luu:

Who are you? Or who am I?

Emma Goto:

So we're not getting children to learn about Socrates or Plato.

Ben Hall:

I think your philosophical position changes with your age, or your life experience.

Emma Goto:

In Computing I think it fits very, very well with digital literacy in particular.

James Robinson:

Welcome back to Hello World a podcast for educators, interested in Computing and digital making. I'm James Robinson Computing educator and professional development Pioneer.

Ben Hall:

Hi I'm Ben Hall a learning manager at the Raspberry Pi Foundation, and a former Computing teacher in the primary phase. I'm very excited to be here with James today exploring a field which I have not previously associated closely with Computing. As ever, We really value your comments and your feedback, which you can share at helloworld.cc/podcastfeedback.

James Robinson:

And welcome to the podcast Ben. Well, this week, we are getting all philosophical about Computing and we're asking what has Computing got to do with philosophy. Now, Ben, you mentioned in your little introduction there that these weren't necessarily things that you kind of associated together. So when we talk about philosophy, what do you think about how this might apply to Computing?

Ben Hall:

Yeah, so the whole area of philosophy is quite new to me really and it's been interesting doing some reading around it in preparation for this podcast. So, a few of the things I've picked out when I've been, when, when I've been doing some research for this is around ethics and communicating respectfully, which I've has some really close links to things like, Online safety and communicating respectfully online. There's also then something about the thinking and communicating collaboratively and teamwork, listening to other people's views and reaching a balanced conclusion and some of those you can apply some of those skills quite closely with many of the things you need to do in Computing.

James Robinson:

Yeah. And I think that's similar to my thoughts Ben. I think one of the things we forget, I mean, you and I are kind of computing experts and kind of talk a lot about Computing education. I think we often think that it's all about the technical detail and how the system works and how are you programming it. But we have to think really carefully about the impact on Society on individuals and, and, you know that impact might be moral, it might be ethical but also and we have when we talk about that we have to sort of think quite philosophically but you don't have to listen to myself and Ben give our naive interpretations of what we mean by philosophy and Computing. We're joined by two experts who are going to share their experience and expertise, not only in the general field of philosophy and how to engage children, but also how we connect it with Computing. Our first guest is Emma Goto, a teacher educator working at the University of Winchester. Emma's background is as a primary teacher teaching ICT and has more recently explored her interest in Philosophy for children and PSHE. So, Emma, my first question to you. I mean, Ben and I had a good go there I think at explaining what we mean by philosophy. How how accurate, were we, how would you describe philosophy and what's the value for students in engaging with philosophy?

Emma Goto:

Okay, so firstly when I'm talking about philosophy in schools. I particularly focus on Philosophy for Children. And the key thing is when we're talking about Philosophy for children, we're not talking about academic philosophy, so we're not getting children to learn about Socrates or Plato, but we're actually getting children involved in doing philosophy. So this is like a practical philosophy. So we get children working together in a community of inquiry, exploring questions that they've set around Concepts. So concepts are the big ideas and philosophical concepts are things like love, Friendship, Community. All of these things that children all and adults all around the world would be talking about and discussing because they're part of what it means to be human. So, when I'm talking about Philosophy for children in Computing, I think it fits very very well with digital literacy in particular. And there are lots and lots of Concepts that we explore in digital literacy that we can explore through this approach. So things like privacy, secrecy, ownership, kindness, protection, Choice, censorship, appearance, safety, citizenship, risk. All of these things are concep... Concepts that can be explored through philosophy. And the reason that their philosophical is that these things are not clear cut. So, if we had a question like, is it ever okay to lie? It's not something where there is one, correct answer. It's something that actually is quite discussable. People will have different viewpoints, they can give examples and counter-examples they can use logic, they can talk about different circumstances and really pick that question apart. So that for me is what I mean when I'm talking about philosophy in Computing.

Ben Hall:

Also, joining us is Amy. Who's a headteacher of a primary school in Cambridgeshire? Her areas of Interest are inclusion; social, moral, spiritual, and cultural development; and maths Mastery. In her available time, Amy also works as an Ofsted inspector. In addition she holds the NPQH qualification and a master's degree in educational leadership and management. Amy, what are your thoughts on philosophy in education?

Amy Luu:

So my principal as an Educator is always about developing children, holistically. So I am particularly interested in not just focusing on the academic achievement, but also ensuring that our children are prepared for, you know, their next steps in society as future citizens. So, last year, when we were discussing School development with the governing body, and a point was raised regarding our social, cultural, spiritual, moral development in school and whether we could incorporate additional opportunities to ensure our children understand and gain an experience in developing their moral understanding a little bit further. And so, to me it's not about set values, but to me it's about having opportunities for children to gain further Insight in the world they live in, and to develop themselves as future citizens holistically.

James Robinson:

And Amy am I right in thinking so you've you set up a philosophy Club in your primary school is that is that right? What does that, what does that look like?

Amy Luu:

So, the philosophy Club happened during lunch time once a week with, I tend to have the club, The Sessions with older children between 9 and 11 years old. So in UK term it would be your year 4 year 5 year 6 pupils and we would meet together and we would explore our thinking trying to answer different questions. You know, just give an example of a simple question, who are you or who am I? And you know we just let the children have the floor and explore their identity who they are and whether, you know, that idea of who they think they are, is a fixed notion or concept or does it have you know more fluidity and whether the idea of identity changes in different contexts and different scenarios?

Ben Hall:

Emma can you explain the philosophy for children approach?

Emma Goto:

As I said, philosophy children Works within a community of inquiry. So a community of inquiry has agreed rules about how they will behave. So there might be rules around things like we listen to each other, we try and use each other's names when we're talking to people. We look at people when we're talking only one person talks at once, we're respectful of each other. Those kinds of rules that are set by the children and with the children at the beginning of the time, they start working together, the community will usually sit in a circle and that's really important because a circle allows children to allows everyone to have equal status and when the teachers working with the children in an inquiry, they work as a facilitator. So they're not the person that has all the answers. They're helping the children to explore and discuss their ideas and explore their questions. So the facilitator will start off the the session with a warm-up exercise and that could be something that allows children to engage their senses for example. So they might engage by passing a handshake round the circle or by doing a game that involves looking and listening or game that gets them mixed up. So, you know, stand up everybody who likes pizza and swap places those kinds of games. It could be a game that gets them thinking about some Concepts already. So they might have a question like, which is more important in life, Freedom or safety and children would go and position themselves in the classroom dependent on where that what their answer might be. So they might have freedom up one end of the classroom, safety at the other end and children could put position themselves somewhere in between those two positions as well. And then the facilitator might picks certain children to share their ideas or their reasons of why they've positioned themselves in that particular place.

James Robinson:

That's really interesting. I'm distracted Now by thinking about where I would stand on that line. Yeah.

Emma Goto:

I Think, you know, it is distracting isn't it because it's the sort of thing that's quite intriguing. It gets you thinking and that's the whole idea of philosophy. It gets you kind of engaged, Thinking, giving reasons and it's around the sorts of things hopefully that are interesting the children which is why we then go on to inquire questions that the children have generated rather than questions that we as adults have set for the children. So we might share an image or picture book maybe to get children thinking about certain ideas and actually as the teacher that's that's the key thing that you do. You select very carefully your stimulus thinking about well what concepts? What philosophical Concepts kind of connect to this stimulus and what might the children start asking about. So you might use a picture like Banksy's modern prison and if you've seen that, that's an iPhone, that's inside is a prison. And that could get children talking about things like technology, secrecy, privacy, identity, those kinds of Concepts or you might read a picture book for instance. So for younger children a really lovely picture book is Chicken Clicking and it's just, I've just forgotten who the author is. I think, actually, it's Jeanne Willis and Tony Ross I believe created that book. And again, that that book has questions around things like privacy and and those kinds of Concepts. And once you've shared that stimulus children, the children in the community will start to develop questions so they might have questions like "what is Trust?" and "what if nobody ever took risks?" and "how do we know that we belong?" and those kinds of questions? And once they've generated their questions, they put them forward to the community and the community decides democratically by some form of vote, which question they're going to engage with in that session. And then they go on to explore that and discuss that take it in turns to share ideas and give reasons. And that the teacher as facilitator is there to kind of encourage that giving of reasons, encourage critical thinking, encourage, creative and caring thinking that we're and encourage collaborative thinking as well.

James Robinson:

So then thinking, as you were describing that and sort of think about to what Amy was saying, a few moments ago about sort of working with some of the older children that work in their, in her school. And are there... And I don't want sort of think of in terms of Ages per se, but are there any prerequisite kind of experiences or knowledge that our Learners might need in order to engage in this kind of philosophical debate? Or is it really accessible to any age? Maybe if we start with Amy on that and then come back to Emma. What are your thoughts Amy, is there an age limit?

Amy Luu:

I don't think necessarily there is an age limit. I think Children need to First understand, have a sense of self. You know they need to understand the concept of themselves as an individual, with views and thoughts. Recognising that, you know, there is themselves and then the community the classroom. So, you know, they have different members in the classroom with them and in terms of. So, going back to your question, I said, I haven't done the club with younger children, but I don't think that there is such an age limit. I think, as the facilitator it is our job to moderate and to choose appropriate questions or, you know, choose an appropriate approach or format to engage our younger Learners, and I'm just thinking about my own child's participation in philosophy Club at his primary school and they followed the that used P4C program and he was in year three at a time and, you know, clearly much younger than the group of children that I was working, that I was working with, but I think, you know, for my experience I think if the children if you could cater the questions to the topic that the Children would have some sort of personal experiences so that they can have, you know, that that would be helpful for them to reflect upon their own experience in order to contribute towards the group discussion or you know, the the philosophical debate.

James Robinson:

And Emma. What are your thoughts on that?

Emma Goto:

Well, I've certainly used Philosophy for children with children as young as five and six and there are lots of Educators who use Philosophy for children with younger children. It's about giving them a chance to share their ideas and to talk in different ways. If you were using Philosophy for children, with very young children, maybe four year olds for instance, You wouldn't have a very long inquiry. You might work with a small group of children, you might get them talking about friendship, you might get them to do One of those kind of, would you rather or either or type questions and get talking about reasons and just trying to get them to use the word because so something like, is it important to have a friend? Yes or no, is something that actually very Young children can give ideas about and to and explore.

Ben Hall:

So what aspects of philosophy do your learner's find most challenging? Are there any particular communication skills which learner's need in order to access Philosophy for children?

Emma Goto:

I think it's very important that children learn to listen to each other. And to accept and understand that actually in, in our society, people have different ideas and that it's okay to disagree and we can disagree agreeably. And I think when you're working with Philosophy for children, at the beginning children's questions are perhaps well as children go on their ability to pose philosophical questions, develops and improves, all the time. Their ability to engage in philosophical dialogue, improves all the time and develops, one of the great Joys I think is that children as they get to know a little bit more about each other as they get used to working together, they can be really sensitive and really caring of other children in the setting, they will recognise the need to give them time and to listen very carefully. And for some children, they may have alternative ways of communicating and and those are all respected and valued and included.

Amy Luu:

So just following on from Emma's Point really. I think, you know, if we, if we think about the communication language development in the early years that that is the foundation stage of, you know, where children, learn to listen to others people's viewpoints, they learn to form their own thoughts and you know, find appropriate ways to express their views in a group setting. But I think if we take that a little bit beyond the communication and language development. And I think Ben's question was about EAL children with English as an additional language or children with speech and language difficulties or challenges in. You know, with regards to the SEND provision. I think there are we're very fortunate to have a range of learning resources to support children to be able to access the curriculum. But also to access the wider school life and community activities. So I'm just thinking about what we are doing at the moment in school, to support our EAL children. We have visual prompts, we have pictures. We have, you know, ways that the children can actually Express their views. Google Translate is an amazing tool, by the way. You know we can just ty the child, the child can type in and there we go. You know that that removes the barrier of the language, the communication barrier. I'm thinking about the use of SEND, communication language tools, such as clicker and clicker5, is the latest one where you know a child can type in and there are pictures you know that helps to make that connection. So, I think if we start with Children Learning the basics, the foundation of communication language, development of listening, sharing ideas. And then if any child who has additional barriers, we can always adapt our strategies and ensure that children have access to the resources to remove the barriers. Whichever they may be.

James Robinson:

And I think we've spoken on this podcast Series in the past about the ideas of Universal Design for Learning and so on where by the you know, the principles of you know, by making a learning experience more accessible for one group of Learners, you're actually benefiting all Learners. That's really important. And when we were, I think Amy. Sorry I think Emma, was saying earlier on about the sort of the some of the ground work you do with philosophy for children where it's about setting up like a safe space where everyone has the space to kind of share their views and listening. And you know, just reminded me really clearly of what we would call a PSHE lesson. So the personal, personal, social, health education. You would you would you would establish those ground rules. Right? And so not only are we kind of we're setting the kids up to succeed in other areas like philosophy. But philosophy is a good Proving Ground to demonstrate those skills. And the fact that the students and the Learners and the participants are are have that agency over developing that rule those rules. I think that really helps reinforce that those ideas.

Ben Hall:

So, that's really interesting. We've got some clear links with the PSHE side of the curriculum. Earlier on, Emma, you talked about, you used words such as inquiry and exploration and question, which are all quite scientific. So, I'm just wondering how you can kind of Channel Philosophy for children into the curriculum having having looked at two quite different areas of the curriculum with from science point of view. And from a PSHE point of view.

Emma Goto:

I think the important thing to recognise about Philosophy for children is it's about developing children's thinking skills and it's an approach to education rather than about particular knowledge that we want to teach children. So really, we could use it in lots of different subjects where we want children to explore and understand Concepts and Big Ideas. So it does fit with things like science and it fits with things like PSHE because it's an approach that we can use in lots of different ways. It's about selecting the concepts that we want children to explore, its sits particularly well I think things like PSHE, citizenship, religious education as well. If fits very well. Philosophy is very good for exploring different concepts and could be used in lots of different subjects. So things like, geography will have Concepts around ownership. You know, whose land is this whose does this island belong to this country or this country, and has it always been this way. And, you know, these are, these are quite philosophical ideas. So if we start to pull different subjects apart, I think we can see where those concepts are and what can be explored and certainly there are lots of different types of community of inquiry. We're talking about philosophical inquiry today. Scientific inquiry is is another community of inquiry that come does come to mind. And there are certainly Concepts within science that we could explore philosophically as well.

Amy Luu:

Yes, I was just sitting here and I could think about the, the approach the, you know, to philosophy and being applied to all subjects and I'm being a being a maths enthusiastic, enthusiast I think about right in maths Mastery what is it that we are trying to encourage our children to do. Inquire making connections, explore, you know, exploring patterns, questioning, thinking about different approaches to the same question or to the same problem. I'm thinking about, you know, subjects such as art, DT, we always have this aspect of inquiring, questioning, exploring. And I think it boils down to at the end of the day is about teaching children to think, critically to to observe. And to note the observations to collect evidence that they are seeing and make connections. So it's about the teaching of thinking skills rather than a body of knowledge as such.

James Robinson:

As you were both talking. I was kind of reflecting on I mean I was trying to set up sort of rattle through subjects and think what are the subjects where maybe wouldn't work right? And in maths whilst debating those, those truth might be kind of not futile, but we're debating an absolute truth. So there's no, there's no kind of differing of opinion. What we might have is we using the skills that we've learned from other inquiry and other debate to express our view on that truth or how we've derived that truth or how we've reached it. So that the content might not be kind of subjective but our perspectives and understanding of that content is subjective. If that made any sense whatsoever, but there we go. So what then and because we started this sort of Journey thinking about Computing. What is it do we think about the area's about about Computing that perhaps lends itself quite nicely? I mean, one of the things I was thinking is Computing is a tool, right? Like many other tools. Those tools can be used for different purposes for good, or for harm. And the use of tools sometimes creates a bit of a tension. And I think Emma, you talked about the tension between like safety and freedom, you put at either end, right? There's a tension between those two things. So, what is it about Computing do we think that maybe creates this fertile ground for these kind of debates? I think you mentioned at the beginning of the recording, this idea of ethics. And actually, I think there's a lot of kind of moral and ethical ideas that we discuss in digital literacy. What you were talking there about in terms of freedom and safety? They work really well because they're actually kind of almost opposing Concepts, they're sort of two, kind of opposite ideas in lots of ways. And so they're they're quite nice to explore in that way. So within digital literacy, we are having lots of discussions about morals, ethics and and lots of these big Ideas so things like right and wrong, secrecy, privacy, kind of honesty, trustworthiness, friendship, identity. These are all really big ideas that have a real impact on how we interact with technology and particularly around things like social media, around things like web presence and and they're very important things for children to understand. I think, historically, we kind of let children down a little bit. I think we were quite slow to get onto the kind of discussions around e-safety and actually test society moved on very quickly and perhaps, in education, we didn't, I don't think these big Ideas around things like permanence of image and trustworthiness can and can actually be things that we teach children, what they have to think about. They have to be things that we allow children to discuss and explore and we help them to navigate. And I think that means Philosophy for children is a really, really good way of doing that. And we haven't missed the boat on that, right? We might have been a bit slow to react with e-safety, but it's not as if there aren't new things coming down the track all the time. You know, we think about the conversations currently with AI right? This, this is a really kind of fast moving and fertile ground. Amy, do you have any other thoughts on that question?

Amy Luu:

Yeah, I see I just think going back to the, the concept, the idea of, you know, credible sources online. And I remember teaching a Computing unit to my previous year group, and we talked about when we do, when we carry out an internet search for information what makes a credible source and, you know, because you can just put in a-anything and Google or, you know, will just give you an a vast amount of information and sources. And I think that, you know, I remember having a discussion with the children about this is this is, you know, it has a very clear link to philosophy, isn't it? Everyone is everyone's sharing their views on the internet. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a view. So so hence you see all these, you know, all these posts on, you know, social media but it's about communicating respectfully communicating with, you know, with. Yeah. Create it with a further understanding of the impact of what they are saying, so digital footprint, as you call it. And I think that that kind concept of digital footprint links really closely to philosophy because we're all we're all part of you know of this of well this Society we all have a role to play and what whatever we do whether online or offline has a great impact on our society moving forward.

Ben Hall:

Thank you, Emma and Amy. You've both made a really compelling case there I think for introducing more philosophy into the classroom. And some really interesting links there with Computing, that've been highlighted as well. Where can our listeners go to find out more about this area? What could they do tomorrow to get started?

Emma Goto:

So philosophy for children was developed in America originally out of the work of Matthew Lipman, and it has gone all over the world really. And in different countries there are different organisations that support Philosophy for children. So for example, in the United Kingdom we have the Society for the Advancement of Philosophical Enquiry and Reflection in Education, which is quite a mouthful. So we shorten that to SAPERE. So if you are working in the United Kingdom, then you could find more resources and information on SAPERE's website, which is www.sapere.org.uk And SAPERE is spelt S A P E R E. So that's www.sapere.org.uk.

James Robinson:

Excellent and then Amy you've sort of started some of this in the classroom if someone wanted to just a dip their toe in the water with Philos with a philosophical question. Where would you suggest they start?

Amy Luu:

Well, I think that it could be, it could, you could start with something as simple as introducing, a question during a whole school assembly. Or, you know, you could have class teachers, introducing the concept of a question of the day, it can be as simple as that. In my case it's about having that the willingness to hold to host a club once a Week I can't it doesn't have to be an hour long and you know for in my case it was during lunch time. So it's only about 20 minutes max because you know the children had to go and have their lunch and I think it's about thinking is about questioning and is about encouraging children to think beyond what they are being told, you know, to engage their own cognitive, You know, skills to discern the information being observed all around them. So the way I started was just you know with a group of children and it was about you know introducing the concept of a small question and a big question you know a small question you can have the answer you know quite definitively it's there. You know they have you had have you had breakfast today yes or no? And then you move up. Yeah. And then you move on to, you know. Yeah, is homework always a bad thing and then you have the yes, no. And then you have the maybe and that and that's where you go in. You know you go into the maybe category. Well why? And then you just draw out contributions from the children in your group. So I think it can be as simple as introducing question of the day in assembly or you know during class discussions or just hold a mini club.

James Robinson:

If you have a question for us or comment about our discussion today than you can email via podcast@helloworld.cc, or you can tweet us at, HelloWorld_edu. My thanks to Emma and Amy for sharing their time experience and expertise with us today. And we'll be back in two weeks to explore more of the issues relating to Computing. So, Ben, what did we learn today?

Ben Hall:

Well, first of all, it's been really great for me to make a connection between two areas of learning which I've never really bought together before. So for me the takeaway is that philosophy is a very fluid sort of thing. I think your philosophical position changes with your age or your life experience and I think that's important that that Learners understand that and in philosophy, there's not absolutes. There's a middle ground that Amy spoke about just now and I think with those kind of Concepts you can open up all sorts of interesting discussions and a mindset, which is useful for any subject, including Computing.

James Robinson:

And I'll add that unlike Computing philosophy is not binary.