Hello World

What makes an effective computing PD experience?

• Raspberry Pi Foundation • Season 4 • Episode 6

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In our final episode for this season we ask the question "What makes an effective computing PD experience?".

Full show notes:
https://helloworld.raspberrypi.org/articles/what-makes-an-effective-computing-pd-experience

Bryan Twarek:

What else, where else they want to grow, where are they at, in their progression, their pathway.

Elizabeth Bacon:

I'd like correct, I think I Twitter stalked you.

Gemma Coleman:

Shut up in like a little publishing Gremlin.

Elizabeth Bacon:

Teachers they're doing and they're doing a lot of good stuff. But then it's like, how do we share that? If we can't talk about it.

James Robinson:

Welcome Hello World a podcast for educators, interested in Computing and digital making. I'm James Robinson, Computing educator and professional development Pioneer.

Gemma Coleman:

And I'm Coleman editor of Hello World magazine and workshop wizard. As ever we really value your comments and feedback which you can share at helloworld.cc/podcastfeedback.

James Robinson:

This week returned from the CSTA teacher's conference in Chicago, We're reflecting on what we think makes an effective Professional development experience for computing Educators. In particular, I'm interested in the different forms that PD can take and the different things that Educators can take away from each. Gemma, hopefully you've had some chance time to recover from what was a really intense week. Do you have any Reflections on the conference itself or on the wider question of what makes effective PD?

Gemma Coleman:

I think my reflection is mainly that it was just so amazing being back face-to-face as I'm sure you felt as well. I think, although, this year has definitely felt a lot more normal COVID wise. This was still, I'm pretty sure the first time that I was back face-to-face with Educators since about February 2020. So that was really lovely just having some, you know, just the energy and excitement of that. And I think especially because working on the magazine, I spend an awful lot of my time at my desk, behind computer and like shut up in my room like a little publishing Gremlin. So it's just really lovely listening to people talking about articles that you've, you know, that you've commissioned or created in that, you know, quiet little environment away from people or, you know, hearing people talking about themes in the magazine that they really enjoyed that, you know, we'd selected at the start of the year. So I think it's really motivating when you actually see the difference that you're work's making. And I think something that we heard and saw a lot about in this conference, was how Hello World in particular, the Big Book of Computing Pedagogy was being used for PD. So as you obviously know James as part of this exhibition we as part of the conference we had like an exhibition stand where people could drop by and have little chats with us and grab some free magazines and something that yeah, came up a lot in those conversations was how teachers had used the Big Book since it come out or how they're planning on using it, if it was the first time they'd seen it. And some people had made the Big Book, I guess, a more formal part of their PD, where they were doing sort of like reading book clubs where they were reading a different section each each week, or each month with with them, with their groups. But I think even on the less sort of formal end of the spectrum like that. I think you've got to remember that even just the act of picking up that Magazine having a skim through adding some Post-it notes and getting a really great idea for your next class is PD and an extension of that sharing your Reflections and findings with each other. So, you know, something I think we've said a few times is, you know, at the conference itself was that PD isn't just about attending a course and you obviously know James that we ran a super Lively writing Workshop where you can learn to write for Hello World and get some tips and techniques, best way to share your ideas with readers. And writing for the magazine, is a really great, great way to reflect on your own practice and I think that that's a, what a lot of the workshop attendees took away with them that even if they don't end up submitting. An article idea to us, they've had they've had that reflection, you know, that that chance to reflect on their own practice, and that PD can be. Yeah, so much more than just just attending a course. That's a lot that I've just said and you have got so much more experience in this area, James, with delivering PD. So, I think people would probably be very interested in hearing your kind of sum up your thoughts.

James Robinson:

I mean, I slightly distracted by your yourself a ppropriated job description of a publishing Gremlin and I might might use that going forward whenever I introduce you. So no, no. And I think you're right. A lot of those Reflections that you've had about like conversations with Educators I think going back to one of the very first things you said about being face-to-face and connecting with Educators. I think for me that underscores something that's really important within a PD kind of session is that it's about connecting with other Educators and that being really, really important. And some of the nicest moments were sort of, you know, running sessions and just letting teachers and Educators, just talk to each other and share their ideas and as subsequently their worst moments were having to ask them to stop so that you can interject and share something else. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And and so, I think yeah, I think that in person nature, that communication, that sharing is really really important and something else that you kind of touched on is this sort of multiple means of Engagement kind of thing is that you know some things you might learn best by going on a course, being told a bunch of information assimilating that information than going away and delivering it in your practice, other things are things that you're going to talk about. Other things are even just delivering a lesson in your classroom is almost its own form of PD. It's you trying a new idea and self reflecting on that. Reading a Magazine article, writing a magazine article, listening to a podcast. You know, all of these are forms of PD in their own right, and they're opportunities to further our learning, if we grab them. And so, I think that that reflection is really important. And I think it also helps us deliver flexible PD for a whole range of audiences. Right.

Gemma Coleman:

Yeah, it's accessible isn't it if it's, if PD is just seen as I'm going to go along on this, you know, massive course that I have to get a budget signed off for, and all the rest of it, it doesn't seem that attainable but, you know, listening to a podcast on your way to work, seems a lot more achievable, doesn't it?

James Robinson:

Yeah. And of I think giving I mean something that Sue's spoke about in her talk at the conference was about kind of recognising teachers as professional individuals with knowledge of their context, their Learners and giving them agency, over kind of how they teach and how they learn and that's really important. And I think so, as a PD provider or someone, that's sort of run, a lot of PD, I think, one of the kind of the keywords for me, you know, whenever I'm delivering some PD, I think it's not about me instructing it's about me, facilitating and sort of making space for those conversations providing a little bit of input and then letting those conversations run away and see where they get to and then kind of drawing people together. We met so many amazing Educators while we were at CSTA, that we had to interview at least a couple to share with you their perspectiv e on this question of effective PD. First, I spoke to Bryan Twarek a K-12, Computer Science, Education leader, and now Director of Education for CSTA. So, I sat down at the conference with Brian, or BT to find out a bit more about the sort of rationale behind the conference and their approach to providing PD for the wonderful teachers here at CSTA. So welcome, Brian, do you want to introduce yourself to our audience briefly.

Bryan Twarek:

Sure, I'd delighted. I am currently Director of Education for the Computer Science Teacher's Association. I'm a previous Middle School teacher, and administrator for the K-12 public school system in San Francisco.

James Robinson:

Great and we're now kind of chilling out at the end of the conference. It's been such a great conference. It's my first time attending in person. What's the kind of the purpose of the conference? And what do you hope teachers that are attending are getting out of such a session?

Bryan Twarek:

I think that sets it apart is the desire for community building. In the United States. And I think it also more broadly most computer science teachers have a department of one so they don't have a colleague to collaborate with like most other subject area teachers and so they lack that both connection and community. And so we really hope to build that here so that when teachers go home to their schools, they have someone to ask for help, exchange ideas, share resources. So we both hope to do that there as well as bolster those Regional networks.

James Robinson:

Yeah.

Bryan Twarek:

And then to build some pedagogical knowledge, content knowledge, share resources, like translate research to practice like those things. But I'd say that like, what sets it apart is the community building.

James Robinson:

Yeah, I reflects a little bit our situation in the UK where teachers are often or have in the past been often, very isolated. And I think it's really important to bring them together and help them connect and share good practice. And I think being here, I think that certainly, something that's come across is, people have felt very relieved to be back in person.

Bryan Twarek:

Absolutely.

James Robinson:

And just spend time together and make those connections. That's been really important, but there's been so much professional development that's going on at the conference through workshops and conversations. To you, what does effective PD for teachers look like, and what forms can it take?

Bryan Twarek:

Effective involves some Community Building, chances for teachers to make connections to people and for not to be only about the content and learning. I think it should have an element that is relevant for their practice next week or this week or tomorrow. Something in the immediate future, they can take back and I think it should be grounded to a bigger picture. So a line to a framework or positioning it so that teachers, over time kind of understand the bigger picture, and are able to reflect on what else, like, where else they want to grow, where are they at, in their progression, their pathway. And then, I think it is also helpful for teachers to leave feeling appreciated. And so, when leading PD personally, I always like to make sure that that there are some things they're taking away and they're feeling that they're feeling like the All-Stars, they are.

James Robinson:

Yeah, And I think what's been nice here as well is that, I think teachers are given that sense of agency in that there's lots of, it's not you know a day of PD where it's all very prescribed, they can go and choose their sessions. They can pick what is sort of going to resonate with them and that's been really apparent here as well. And they're learning from their peers. It's not a top-down. This is how you will do things. I think one of the things that's been really exciting about being here at the conference and this is largely in thanks to you and the organisational work that's been put in by CSTA, is that we've been able to bring our twelve pedagogy principles here. And I think part of that was trying to help give teachers a shared language, and I guess that must be really challenging here in the states, right? Because as well, not only have, we got, it's very you know, geographically big but every state has a different set of standards and principles and approaches. So yeah. Do you have any kind of Reflections on the value of that kind of shared language?

Bryan Twarek:

I think vitally important and I think there's a lot more shared language around the computer science content objectives outcomes because while each state adopts its own set of instructional standards, the vast majority are built on or are the CSTA standards. And so there's not that much variance. However, there's a wider variety of like, what are the requirements for certification of teachers? And there's very little commonality around what effective pedagogy looks like. And so yeah, we need common language and common framework for that. And it really hasn't existed. There's very few methods courses because there's very few CS teacher preparation programs so most of our PD is inservice. Meaning teachers, existing teachers, take some sort of training to begin teaching of computer science and often get certification alongside that or afterwards and it's tricky. So like there's a real need around this and so I feel incredibly grateful for this...

James Robinson:

No we feel grateful to come and share this with with your teachers. And I think the other thing was you mentioned about pre sort of in-service teachers, maybe transitioning into computer science is often, what that means is that the biggest and the most pressing demand often is the content Knowledge is understanding the concepts, they're trying to teach, but sometimes that maybe means that the, the pedagogy gets left behind or becomes secondary.

Bryan Twarek:

Something witnessed from my time in San Francisco Public Schools. Is that teachers often teach multiple subjects and I would observe them teaching a subject they're more familiar with like mathematics and also computer science. And I might see brilliant collaborative group work where teachers are working to mitigate status and have these collaborative activities where students it's inquiry-based that sort of thing and then go into their computer science environment where students are working independently or maybe asking partners for help which they but the, what I see an over Reliance I think a lack of confidence leads to an over-reliance on the prescribed curriculum or or what's dictated for them in a lesson as opposed to relying on their teaching craft.

James Robinson:

Yes.

Bryan Twarek:

And so I having something that says, this is what effective pedagogy is in Computing can help. And with time for reflection can help with that, transfer of things that teachers might already be skilled in, but feel less comfortable bringing into their Computing class.

James Robinson:

And it's think, yeah, sometimes this transition into Computing can be a little bit not not demotivating, but it can leave, teachers feeling having less agency and having less sort of ownership of what's going on and and I think it's maybe trying to kind of move the dial back to recognising that teachers, are trained professionals with expertise and experience and they know their students and that's that's their job, right? And and and empowering them to take those decisions to use what's right for their Learners.

Bryan Twarek:

Absolutely.

James Robinson:

And my question is so we've had what was it? 1600 something like that p eople attend the conference which has been absolutely fantastic. It's been buzzing. How do we then take PD out to the masses to the people that couldn't attend in person, the people that don't have the time to get out here? How do we move the dial on that?

Bryan Twarek:

I think always has to be a menu of options because there's a number of constraints and teachers are busy and also deserve a vacation. So I think a number of online options are important. So in late October we'll be collaborating with Raspberry Pi foundation, on an online Summit, Focused around the Big Book of Computing Pedagogy. And another thing that we focus on is our regional, CSTA chapters. And so a goal is for chapter leaders to select what's most relevant to teachers in their area and find teachers and facilitators to, like lead PD locally. So we rely heavily on that. So they, a combination of local networks, centrally provided things, online and in-person options.

James Robinson:

I think choice of flexibility piece that you mentioned there is really, really important. Super. Well, Thank you BT. It's been a pleasure talking to you, and I hope you enjoy the remainder of the conference.

Bryan Twarek:

Thank you

James Robinson:

Thanks for us.

Gemma Coleman:

It was there to just hear Brian's Reflections on PD and the CSTA conference and we're super, super grateful to Brian and the rest of the CSTA CSTA team for inviting us and supporting us at the conference. James towards the ends of the conference. I saw you sneak off on what I thought was a quest for yet more free swag. But I believe you were actually speaking to our second guest is that...

James Robinson:

Yes, yes, was working. I was doing some interviewing and not just leaving you all to do the pack-down. Which I, you know, I did. Yeah. So I had a really great conversation with another conference attendee Elizabeth Bacon who's an educator and curriculum developer who's worked with organisations such as code.org and CoderZ. And so yeah we had a little bit of a chat about her experience of PD. So, I sat down with Elizabeth Bacon, we bumped into a number of times at a conference, and just had a chat, little bit of a chat with her about what she's taken away from CSTA 22.

Elizabeth Bacon:

I like to think I Twitter stalked you is actually what happened.

James Robinson:

Yeah, no fine, yeah, yeah, we started up a conversation on Twitter. But then, but then yeah, we met him in person, and we've had some really great conversations. So we're at the end of the conference now, Elizabeth, if you reflect back on the last 3-4 days, a week, whatever it's been, what has been your kind of biggest takeaway, what are you, What are you, taking away from the conference? What have you learnt? What have you enjoyed? Yeah. What are your Reflections?

Elizabeth Bacon:

Well, I it's a bit of a blur right now. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're just on the last day, so technically it's still going on, but I think that there's been this conference compared to previous conferences. It just feels like a lot more polished, a lot more sort of like we're getting systems in place compared to, you know, few years ago, when CSTA felt like sort of this ragtag group of Educators that were coming together and, you know, just trying to make sure that that computer science is going to be in the schools. And now I feel like it's we've gotten to a point where we're kind of we realised, Okay, we're here, we're going to stay but how do we make this sustainable? How do we make it Equitable? You know, what are the things we do to make sure that we're doing it well, and that students are having a cohesive experience that, you know, we've been talking a lot about localisation at scale, you know, how do we meet the diverse needs of our students? So I think seeing that moving from kind of what felt like seven years ago is just survival mode in a lot of ways to seeing, you know, we're at McCormick. It's huge, it feels very slick. Yeah. It's just it feels kind of all grown up, you know.

James Robinson:

Yeah, I you mean. There's definitely that sort of that end point of that journey and it's been, it's been really great. I mean, I haven't had the opportunity to go to many sessions during the conference, but I think I've seen, I think I've seen you popping in and out of a few sessions. So, what's, what's been, what would you kind of say, has been made a really good session while you've been here, what have you enjoyed about the sessions or what does good PD look like? While you're at a conference like this?

Elizabeth Bacon:

Well, I of the things that I really like about PD is the opportunity for educators to talk to each other and reflect on their practice with other professionals. So if, you know, if you're at a PDE, you've got a giant group of experts that often don't have a chance to share their expertise with one another. So I think for me, good PD leaves, a lot of space for reflection on what we're doing. But also that peer-to-peer communication and I think for the we think about the PD facilitator rather than trainer to say, you know, here's this idea that we're going to explore together jointly as professionals, you know, obviously, you know, I went to your Workshop which is fantastic and you know you were definitely bringing in a lot of content expertise for this new, you know, the semantic waves. That is something a lot of us have encountered before. So like I think you did have to say, this is what it is. Yeah but what I really appreciated it, what I really appreciated was the opportunity for us to think about our own lessons and how and to conference with each other about how would this work for you? How do you do it in your classroom? Because even when you facilitate a PDE, you get so many ideas from the other teachers. So I think respecting the expertise of the Professionals in the room. It's probably like the number-one thing, and, and for it to be more communicative and collaborative than like, performative.

James Robinson:

Yeah, that's really important. And I think whenever we've delivered PD, we try to kind of, you've got to sort of situate as close to the participant in the room as close to their practice and their experience and their expertise because they know their students, they know their contacts. They know the challenges that they face and they're, you know, they are bringing a wealth of expertise with them. I think something else that's been really interesting and it kind of the session we did on Thursday, on semantic waves but also I think one of the other things we've been talking about at the conference is sometimes to be able to have that dialogue with other teachers it's we need to have that that shared language. And that's a real challenge, is that something like a challenge that you've experienced? And do you think it's something that we're starting to overcome as a teaching professional Community, kind of internationally?

Elizabeth Bacon:

Well, I of the things that, you know, when we talk about the shared language, or the language that we're using around, our pedagogical approaches is that we're getting a lot of people in CS who come from a lot of different disciplines. So it's very rare at least from, you know, at least over here for a teacher to have graduated from teacher College saying, I'm going to, I'm going to teach CS. Just we're not there yet, we're getting there, but we're not there yet, so a lot of the kind of when we talk about our instructional strategies, we're getting them from literacy. We're getting them from maths. We're getting them from science and what's happened. Then we're also getting a lot of people from Tech. Who didn't go to teacher school and maybe have their own experiences in education, but being a passenger on that ship is not the same as you know, like trying to navigate that ship. So it's a very there are a lot of people coming in with a diverse set of experiences which can make what we're doing really robust and, you know, we can meet the needs of a lot of students, but it can also be hard. You know, when we talk about, for instance inquiry based learning or, you know, some other, you know, other strategies that we use, that can mean something really specific to some people, and then it means something different to somebody else. And I think that's been sort of a challenge when, you know, I've been talking to other people who are in the curriculum development space, or in the PL space. Is what what exactly do you mean by that? Not not because I'm trying to challenge you, but let's make sure we're on the same page. So I think the the work and I know you said this is not an ad for yourself, but the work you're doing with like the Big Book of Pedagogy has been so helpful that, you know, when somebody says, for example, PRIMM it's like people know what that means and that's something that was specifically created for this space and it's not necessarily a surprise. It's one of those things that when teachers look at it they're like, well, of course or I'm already doing it. Yeah but now we have a name for it and now that we've kind of like operationalised it we're able to go out and sort of like take it to the next level and share resources in a way that wasn't really possible before because that there's the there's the underlying sort of learning Sciences Theory. And then there are these strategies that we use and then these concrete how are the strategies implemented in the classroom? And sometimes I think that middle layer of just what are the what are the systems and strategies that we can talk about for this specific, You know, this discipline specific pedagogy is kind of missing. So we're sort of teachers, know what they're doing and they're doing a lot of good stuff. But then it's like, how do we share that? If we can't talk about it.

James Robinson:

Yeah, and really important, and I think just going back to what you were saying about the whole you know Computing, kind of being a broad Church. Like a really, we've got to discipline as a discipline. It is such a broad discipline that touches upon so many other subjects and disciplines that it makes sense that we have people that are coming from Tech and from science and maths and English and all of those are the subjects and though they're bringing their own subject specific pedagogy and ideas and expertise. And that does mean that we're in this really exciting space where we are. We've got some really great pedagogy already, but we're also developing new pedagogy all the time. And so this is the book that we've produced and the principles. It's a, it's a snapshot in time and we will build and grow that. But I think that that double-edged sword of having people that are coming in without experience of computing. They're bringing a lot into the discipline but they're also having to learn a lot and take I meet them. You know, we might often have the same words for very different things in different disciplines that we're having to kind of navigate that challenge. And I think, I guess my last question to you because we talked about this a little bit in a conversation the other day was around, sort of the different forms that PD can take it. So we're here at a conference, we've got physical presence. We've got people talking to each other in person and I think sometimes PD can is almost like a capital letter, kind of PD, which is like a, you know, in a space with other people being facilitated by somebody. But for me PD can take a whole range of other forms. And I think you kind of echoed that a conversation we had to the day. So how else can teachers engage in effective PD that doesn't involve them traveling or talking to other people maybe.

Elizabeth Bacon:

Right, I they're kind of two Dimensions to that which is like what are the resources available? And what's the kind of what's the process through? Which are engaging in it and also sort of what sort of PD is our teachers looking for and at a point in time because, you know, we have teachers who really are kind of thrown into this and they are, you know, their teachers but they haven't done Computing before but and then their their needs for PD, you know, they like they kind of need that boot camp of like I just want to get into the classroom. Tell me what to do. Tell me what to say. And then maybe after a while, they're going to be able to do more of the sort of PD that we're seeing here with people who have already gone through that process and they're like, okay, I'm going to expand my practice. I'm going to reflect. So I think that's one dimension but then I think the other dimension that you were talking about is yes, you can go to the week-long summer workshop and be in person with everybody and it's going to be an amazing transformative experience. But then there are also we do have opportunities like within our local communities, of building that community of practice of just communicating with our peers. So I think that's sort of informal space of you have that problem. You know, here's how I did it. I think there's there's that too. Sorry I'm sort of thinking while I'm talking then, so it's a little bit hard. But there's, you know, those sorts of informal conversations or this hallway conversation, so there's Teachers Lounge conversations I have to say I worked at a K-12 and I was always kind of like looking at what the I worked in the high school. I was always looking at what the elementary teachers were doing because I was like, I was like you guys are, you know, you're into the manipulatives, you're into, you know, all of these things that we know could be good for everybody but they're just so necessary for, you know, those those younger kids and but my kids loved it too. You know, when we were doing paper craft stuff, they loved it. So, getting those conversations but also just giving yourself that space to sit down and reflect and that's something I'm not good at, you know, it's like, are we, you know, we get so kind of like, bogged down with the prepping and the doing, and the marking and the assessing and everything and it's like, do I have time to just sit down and read something? And generally it's on the plane like that's, that's when I can read. Is when I'm on the plane. So I think there are a lot of forms that PD can take, but I would kind of have a caveat there that that that's work time. That's time that teachers need. We need to recognise that if a teacher is sitting down and reading the Big Book of Pedagogy like they're working, are we giving them space in their workday to do that? Because if we're not, then you know, they're not only will they not have the time to do it, but we're not going to have the cognitive energy to actually process all of that. And that's, that's kind of a danger there.

James Robinson:

Again, bit of an issue in the, you know, like sort of PD events. They often like we're certainly in the UK. If I say I'm going to go to this course. Well OK, you're going to need time to go to that course. And I'm going to, we're going to pay for to get a supply teacher in. But for you to say, I need some time to go and listen to a podcast, have a conversation with another teacher, visit another school, read this book because you don't have to go anywhere...

Elizabeth Bacon:

That's Sunday nights for.

James Robinson:

Yeah, just your evening, right?

Elizabeth Bacon:

Or even a supply teacher so that I can go, observe my peers, you know, and see what they're doing in the classroom.

James Robinson:

Yeah, I some ways, actually being in the classroom, delivering lessons in itself is a really great form of PD. And so you were saying the idea of kind of like, bootable bootstrapping kind of giving people some content to just say, just go and teach this be reassured. This this will, this is effective, this will work. Here's what you might want to think about but just making sure that they have that, their focus can be not on the concepts, and the content and having to plan the lesson. But just thinking about, I am going to focus in this lesson on my pupil relationships and getting them to talk to each other or use language. I think giving them the space to do that is really important. And I think that's where, you know, organisations like code.org and a Raspberry Pi and other organisations that are providing content can provide people with resources that just mean they can focus on the teaching and learning.

Elizabeth Bacon:

Right, and think it is important with that. You know we have these resources that are really rich with with a lot of research based strategies that. Let's at least give teachers the heads-up. This is what's going on because otherwise you're kind of thrown in and these are smart, you know, educated professionals with a lot of expertise. Let's tell them. This is why we're doing it this way. You know, I'm not going to make you figure out the learning objectives. This is what it is. You don't need to reverse engineer my lesson. Yeah, you know, let me, let me tell you what's going on here.

James Robinson:

But also, doesn't work for you, change it.

Elizabeth Bacon:

Absolutely.

James Robinson:

Super. been an absolute pleasure to talk to you throughout the whole on whole conference...

Elizabeth Bacon:

So glad I meet you in person, I know you did answer my Twitter.

James Robinson:

Yes, yes. so much. Well, what was a great conversation and I think, you know, to try and some wider perspectives. We asked our wider audience, what do you think makes a great Computing PD experience? And former guest on the podcast Cat Lamin, sort of shared her Reflections, which she's been very fortunate to experience some excellent PD over the years. And one of the key things is having facilitators who are passionate and enthusiastic. And that gives they give you lots of opportunities to talk and work creatively with new interesting people. And when you leave, you, leave feeling excited, engaged, And eager.

Gemma Coleman:

That's the key. I think, if you're not leaving, feeling excited, that's a worry. And Andy Kali has also sent us his thoughts. He has given a few kind of clear, you know, key ideas to what he thinks makes a great and PD session and that's training that has a clear purpose. Improves your practice, of subject knowledge, has time built into actually apply it, which I definitely agree is really, really important and that you might even get some follow-up to it because sometimes I think you're just, you know, it's just a one-off kind of thing where you don't ever get a chance to kind of go back to anybody with questions. That could be a bit difficult, so totally agree with you that Andy. And he's also said, just like us having that in-person kind of experience is, I don't know. Perhaps a lot more valuable and that you get the chance to get good biscuits Andy has put. So just agree with absolutely everything he said here.

James Robinson:

Yeah, I pick on one thing that he did. Say, sometimes you as computer scientists, we can be susceptible to the oh I'm going to learn about this new Gadget or new toy or new tech. And I think we wouldn't be Computer scientists without Instinct but we've also got to kind of resist that sometimes and make sure that we're focusing on how we improve our classroom practice. So if you have a question for us or comment about our discussion today and you can email via podcast@helloworld.cc, or you can tweet us at at HelloWorld_Edu, my thanks to Brian and Elizabeth for sharing their time, experience and expertise with us today, we're gonna be taking a short break now over the summer but we'll the back in a few weeks time for another series of the Hello World podcast. So Gemma, what did we learn?

Gemma Coleman:

Simple that we have managed extremely well over the last, you know, two, three or however, many years is now in a virtual online world, but nothing quite beats, the joy of in-person chats with teachers.

James Robinson:

Well, I having run several sessions, I think great PD is built on really colourful sticky notes.