This week our hosts and guest speakers discuss the role computing communities can play in computing educators lives. They share what communities they're a part of and the experiences they’ve had as community leaders.
Read the full show notes here: rpf.io/hwp-s6e2
This week our hosts and guest speakers discuss the role computing communities can play in computing educators lives. They share what communities they're a part of and the experiences they’ve had as community leaders.
Read the full show notes here: rpf.io/hwp-s6e2
Being able to work with people globally around the world to get kids coding is just the most exciting thing to see.
James Abela:Before you know it we've got people all the way from New Zealand to Peru and we've got 260 people and people are now saying to us "Is there any community like this for other subjects?"
James Robinson:Welcome back to Hello World a podcast for educators interested in computing and digital making. I'm James Robinson, Computing Educator and member of several communities of practice.
Zoe Davidson:Hello, I'm Zoe Davidson Program Coordinator at Code Club. Building a thriving and authentic Code Club community is at the heart of what I do every day. This is why I'm excited to have a conversation with our guests on the role of computer science communities.
James Robinson:As ever we would really value your comments and feedback, which you can share at Helloworld.cc/podcastfeedback. So, Zoe you mentioned that we're talking a bit today about CS communities, something that you do every day. Why do you think that CS communities are so important as educators?
Zoe Davidson:So James for me a community network like the computer science community is a shared stage where we can all engage in two-way conversations, build relationships, gain support, and connect with people who share similar passions. Just like what we're doing here with Hello World. That's why it's important. We all need a supportive space where we can go to and ask for advice, foster innovation, and share knowledge, gain insights, or just celebrate that we've had for example, an awesome Code Club session, or that you've got through your first week as a newly qualified teacher. James, what communities are you part of and what do you get from them?
James Robinson:Well, I think, I've been and [I] am part of lots of communities over the time that I've been an educator. And I think there was a couple of things that you kind of mentioned it made me think actually we're a really small community or set of communities. And I think that's one of the reasons that the community is so important. As a computer science educator and I realise I'm not answering your question at all here Zoe.
Zoe Davidson:It's okay I'll let you off.
James Robinson:Okay, but as a computer science educator in a classroom. I was one of, one or two teachers in that school that did that job. And it can be quite isolating and I think that is, no matter where I go in the world and talk to educators. That seems to be a recurring theme that there is, you might be one person in a school trying to deliver computing or computer science. And so I think it is vital that we have connections with other people doing the same thing. So that we don't feel quite so isolated. We do have people that we can go to and share knowledge and develop innovation and develop our practice. Myself, the first community I think I was part of was probably CAS, which is Computing at School in the UK. And I was a member of that community. I led a local community for a little while and now since then, and since working at Raspberry Pi the number of communities and the range of different people that I have access to is just phenomenal. So the you know, there's the existing CAS Network there's people at CSTA, which is a community in America. We've got the the Code Club network, which I was running my Code Club I was part of and then the Hello World community and there are just so many and each one, I think enriches my view of the space in which we work. So, I don't know if I've done your question justice there Zoe but I've tried to answer. So, we've got some guests, amazing guests joining us today Zoe. I'm gonna hand over to you, who is our first guest that's going to join us?
Zoe Davidson:Ah James, I'm really delighted we have Kaye with us all the way from Australia. Kaye is an experienced teacher and now the Community Engagement Manager for Code Club Australia. She's built a thriving community of Code Clubs in Australia, but also a global community through her work with Moonhack an online global challenge that runs every year which I'm sure Kaye will talk to us more about. So to kick this conversation off Kaye. I have a question for you, which is what does a computer science community look like to you?
Kaye North:Such a great question. Thank you so much for having me here today. I guess it's like James said having that community is about being with your peers, the people who share your passions, who engage in the same things that you, you know those conversations where you describe something that happened or when the kid is just achieved you need somebody who understands exactly what you're talking about. And I think those communities are what inspire us. They, kind of motivate us to do more. And I think for me those communities are also about how I can support other people to sort of follow their passions, progress where they want to. I am a huge person with curriculum. I'm a teacher by trade and I think being able to share that passion and that knowledge with other people in those community spaces is just the most important thing. And you mentioned Moonhack I have to say that is one of the most special communities I think I'm part of. Being able to work with people globally around the world to get kids coding is just the most exciting thing to see. And watching on social media as people in Japan are sharing what their kids are doing and being inspired to do through our community is just the most amazing feeling.
James Robinson:That's amazing. Thank you Kaye. And it's really great. I think you talked about so many, there were so many words you mentioned there like inspiration, motivation, passion, all of those things clearly resonate for you and we'll pick up that conversation in a moment. Returning to the podcast is James Abela, Head of Computing at Garden International School in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He's a Raspberry Pi Certified Educator, Author, and Founder of the Southeast Asian Computer Science Teachers Association. So James, that Association that community's been running for a while, what first led you or motivated you to found that Community?
James Abela:Really, in the UK we had CAS and we had Raspberry Pi and we had a lot of communities that were available. But as soon as I went international I felt very much on my own. And I realized that we were really really missing out. And we have a lot of one person departments when it comes to computer science. I'm very lucky now that I have a team, an amazing team with me. But I still remember those days of being that one person who was the geek and did everything to do with computing. And so what I wanted to do was bring everybody together and I talked to a friend Simon in Brunei and we said "We really need to do something, you know, maybe even if it's just ten of us, you know, that'll be all right, you know a few people in Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur." And before you know it we've got people all the way from New Zealand to Peru. And we've got 260 people. And people are now saying to us "Hey, is there any community like this for other subjects" and I'm like "There is if you found it." And literally we've got to a point now where we have 24/7 support, you know. We've had quite a few things going on internationally and what we find is when I go to bed at a night there might be an issue. It got itself resolved overnight and when I come up in the morning not only is the question being resolved. We've got the answer and we've got the scenario. And normally the programmers that are involved have made the thing as well. So it's become an amazing scenario, but it is just that people talking to each other.
James Robinson:Mmm, and you talked about something that reminds me of a kind of mantra I think of the early days of when CAS in the UK was forming "There is no them there's only us." And it was this idea that we can't wait for for others to kind of build a community for us, if we value a community and we want there to be this sort of connection and fostering of innovation and sharing, we've just got to take action and make it happen. Because no one else is going to do it for us necessarily. So I had a follow-up question for both of you maybe. So I think that you both kind of talked about people having conversations and sharing, is that at the root of what our communities are? What does engagement in the communities look like? Is it just online conversation, in person events? Like what's the nature of being part of that community? Anyone can pick that up.
James Abela:I think it's going to be different between me and Kaye because ours is very much online and not even synchronous online because a lot of these teachers are very much on their own. They're in places like Spain, France, Italy, South America the US. We don't have so many in Australia. We have a few in New Zealand, Singapore Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and it was founded in Southeast Asia. Which is why we stuck the name together, although we seem to have a huge European contingent and we're looking at how we can probably meet up in London possibly in July in person, but 95% of its online. And 95% of it is on WhatsApp and no matter what I try to do, what I suggest in terms of alternative networks. It's going to be WhatsApp and it stays at WhatsApp because it's just there, it's instant and it's quick. Kaye, I suspect you have a very different answer.
Kaye North:Yeah, I find it's quite different here in Australia. But I think too for Australia it depends on whereabouts you're actually located. So those of us that are in the cities that face-to-face option is something that is definitely the most popular. You know being in the room with people, having that energy, being able to chat move between. That's something that's really important. But then for our more remote communities online is definitely the way to go. Can't say that WhatsApp is a popular way of connecting here. Yeah, I think more traditional sense like through Twitter and various communities like that is definitely more popular. But I think here too in Australia particularly since the pandemic. It's been that hybrid kind of model, you know, some people it just works that online is better for them. Yeah, and others face-to-face events. Definitely great.
Zoe Davidson:I think things have changed since the pandemic like as in we've become more open to being online and in person but I guess, like what are the differences? Do you think we get a different experience from an online group to an in-person group?
Kaye North:I'm going to say yes. I think that the pandemic, although you know, the kind of communities we're talking about are very comfortable with online environments. I think it really opened it up to people in other fields to join those environments. And so I find here we've got a lot more industry personnel jumping in working with educators online. Really exposing a different side to what we do and what we educate our kids for, which has been fantastic. Also, I think having online spaces for people to meet also makes it more accessible for people as well. If people are in you know, if we've got volunteers who are working 9 'til 5 being able to come to an in-person meet-up is sometimes a bit of a challenge but actually having an online space where they can still connect with peers. It's just so important and it adds so much value as well. Doesn't it?
James Abela:Yeah, because that's what happens is, you know, you're planning your lessons when you're planning your lessons. And because we have a genuinely global connection. You can immediately ask that question and somebody's going to answer because it'll be convenient in somebody's time zone or in some cases. Some of those teachers have got insomnia are they're up early in the morning. Whatever it is. There is always somebody around who will jump in and answer, and I've lost track of any particular time of day that it's best to put an announcement out because it could be anything and yeah, we've become very very global and very comfortable with that. I would say that even within our community. We always say, "Oh it would be great to meet in person." And sometimes we get to, but sometimes you are hours upon hours away from the next nearest person with any competence. Well being able to press a few buttons and connect with somebody it's just so so valuable. So I think that mixture is fantastic.
James Robinson:Mmm, I've got a head buzzing with questions. I've like, oh I need to ask about that and I need to ask about this. So I'm trying to pick where to go next. I think let's just go back to the WhatsApp thing because I find that quite interesting as well. Is that a function James do you think or a result of just the fact that you're, it's something that's sort of fairly common, it's accessible via a smartphone, which is probably more, more globally kind of accessible device then say a laptop or as you know, a really stable internet connection. What drives people towards and even if it's not exactly WhatsApp a platform like WhatsApp that's very mobile first?
James Abela:WhatsApp is is very popular in Southeast Asia, which is why it got picked and it got picked because it was very easy for us to do. And WhatsApp does have a computer version if you want it and it yeah, it's just a very very low barrier to entry. Particularly for those of us in Southeast Asia who are using it for all sorts, you know, we use as commonly as Messengers and you know, it works on Android it works on the Raspberry Pi it works on iPhone. It works on your computer. It works on just about any device and also most schools don't block it and even if they did block it we can use our 4G and 5G. So it is like, I don't like to say it's like bushes or something it grows and grows and grows. But we have tried all sorts of platforms from Reddit. We do have a LinkedIn nothing, nothing sticks. It just continues on the WhatsApp because it is, it is just there and it's immediately available to any teacher who's got it.
Zoe Davidson:I love that. It's such a different way of working to me and of building a network. So it's definitely made me think about like our practice and what we do because I had a very similar conversation with one of our growth partners in Peru, and they also use WhatsApp which just blew my mind of how they do that and I feel like I want to join your group just to kind of experience it and see the conversations that take place. But yeah, it's fascinating to hear all this.
James Abela:You'd all be welcome to do so, by the way, we do have a friend of friend policy and you're all my friends so that's fine. But we do for safety purposes. We do insist that you know, at least one member before you join and that is a little bit different. Because we've had a few people over the past who've tried to join and they're either sales or marketing or not really teachers and that that is very important that we weed those people out.
James Robinson:Then that kind of, I had a question it was sort of for Kaye, but you've kind of touched upon that a little bit there just in terms of the membership of the community because Kaye you seem to talk a little bit about like welcoming in kind of people outside of the sort of direct education sphere in terms of industry professionals and those kinds of things. And James that was more, that this is more could have reserved for teachers potentially. Like how do we decide like, yeah who is part of this community? And what values are different voices kind of bring? And I'm going to go to Kaye maybe first on that.
Kaye North:Yeah. I think it completely depends on what the vision is and what the core values are of that community that you're a part of. So the community I was talking about where we've started inviting industry personnel in it's all secondary or high school teachers who are teaching computer science many of them like we've said before are one person in a large school. They're the only person teaching that subject but they need to understand and have that knowledge of these kids are studying this subject. What does that lead to? What does the real world look like with a job with those skills? So it's important to bring that industry into that to have those conversations to you know, create the posters about the jobs, to have them come and talk to the kids, to run sessions in classrooms and to do that. Whereas, you know my Code Club community and all of my wonderful network of volunteers, those people definitely wouldn't bring in industry personnel into that. It's you're a registered member of our Code Club community. Here's our communication channels and that might be the Facebook group or it might be the email list or things like that. And then again, you know different communities again thinking about primary schools here, in Australia our primary schools are so... I want to say cotton-wooled. They're really protected in the forms of you know, what we can access on the internet at a school. Teachers would definitely not get access to WhatsApp in the school environment. They can't even get access to Facebook. So we're still in email discussion lists with those people and you know, you have to have a school email address to be accepted into that community. So yeah, I think at the heart of it it comes back to what's your vision and that really determines who you need to invite into that group.
Zoe Davidson:I have a very recent story. So I recently posted something on LinkedIn on our Code Club LinkedIn page and a person reached out to me and said "That's my old primary school. I'd love to go back and visit." And we went, and then he went back to visit as a relatable role model and he happens to work in the Formula 1 industry. And the kids just, it was unbelievable how much they connected what they'd been learning in Code Club around inputs and outputs, and what that means in a car with the sensors. And I don't know if that's something like that would fit in in this, it was just because it's so recent, I was like what Kaye just said was just like perfect.
James Robinson:It almost kind of depends a little bit on what you're trying to get out of that community and I think being open to opportunities when they arise but also[...] Having principles and values that you stick to. And so like in that situation Zoe if that individual had been coming in trying to sell something that might have changed the nature but they were coming in wanting to have a positive impact and their interesting context within which they work and their connection to the school. I think helped, you know builds, you know deliver a great experience for the learners. James what's your kind of perspective on this. Is the fact that you keep it to teachers. Is that a function or is that due to what you're trying to do with the community?
James Abela:Yeah. I mean the reason we do it, is it is about teachers and if we do have third-party contacts we'll reach out to them via email and stuff. But what we don't want is people selling stuff, you know, and you get a lot of people. And we have had to have words with some of our members who are trying to sell their product, which they are teachers. So they're allowed to be in there, but they're trying to oversell their product and we do have a strict policy that you're allowed to suggest what you're talking about, or you're making, or stuff like that. But you're not allowed to try and sell a product. And having that clear division has been very helpful for us to keep the community together. But also we have done things like negotiate prices on certain products to every member and we have to keep them out to do that.
Zoe Davidson:So we always want to make sure that our communities are representative of the people who are part of them. How do we make sure that they're inclusive how have you done that with the groups that you're part of, or that you've set up James?
James Abela:So with SEACSTA, we have a steering committee. So I'm one of the founders there's Simon on it as well. We've put a few rules. There are six members. We've said that three members are male and three members are female and we've been very strict on that. And because it's a steering committee it's not a voting system. It's not something where people talk because it is free for everybody to access. And to be honest we do have to pay money to make sure that this thing continues happily and I think that's really important. I think that having people that keep you sane, people that say you're doing right and wrong and making sure that they are representative. We have about I think the last time I checked about 50 nationalities. Because of the nature of WhatsApp we do not know the colour or race or even religion unless it's very obvious within the name of the people that are a part of it, and some people do have western names even if they're perhaps, Chinese, or Mandarin. The only limitation we have and this is simply because of the nature of the group. Is that the group is in English. We're not saying you can't start up another group in another language, but that's just the the common language and we say "Look, you're welcome to join. If you don't feel you can contribute directly. You're welcome to listen." So yeah, those are the only real restrictions is that you've got to be a computer science teacher in an international, and by international that includes the UK wherever, in a school. And we don't make any other restrictions and it's fully free to enter there is no money exchanged at any point. And that is really important to me. Is that everything about it is free.
Kaye North:I think it's really similar a number of the communities that I'm apart of will have a steering committee that definitely is a representative across everyone who's involved. Some of the committee, the computer science sort of communities. We have across Australia are a membership kind of system. Where there is a small nominal fee to become a member. But what that does is you can access any of the workshops, or professional development, or the research papers for free throughout that 12 months. Sometimes that's a bit exclusive I guess for some people. I think within the Code Club network though, you know, we truly value ensuring that everyone's a part of it. Being able to offer it at no cost. Being able to do it in a way where whatever access you have. You know, it's free software. All of those sorts of things really make it available for everybody to join in.
Zoe Davidson:And what do you think that we can do more of to make sure that underrepresented voices are heard within our computer science communities?
Kaye North:Visibility, promotion, all of the fun stuff right? I think that's been a bit of a sticking point for me with Code Club in Australia and moving ahead for next year. One thing I'm doing is reaching out to my community and we're going to do spotlights on different clubs across Australia and feature them in our newsletters and put shoutouts on social media, you know. Really shine a light on the people who are doing great things. I think we have a lot of people in our communities who sit and watch and observe. They don't feel like they can be a part. But if we can take stories and showcase and highlight. Then they can see that you know, everybody is part of this and everyone's welcome and I think that's definitely a way forward.
Zoe Davidson:I really like that.
James Abela:One thing that I would add is that sometimes those people who are shy about the voice, they will directly reach out to me and say "I don't want to say this." And then I can either encourage them to say it or I can say "I can say this anonymously for you." And once you start doing that you are representing those voices and quite often. I find even if the first time they say "I'd like to be anonymous." When they see that there's a warm reception to their words the next time they tend to directly put in. And I think that's it. It's giving lots of options to participate so that it's not a black or white, that there are grey's so that people can contribute in the way that they feel comfortable.
Zoe Davidson:I was gonna say, I agree. I think as someone that was new to computer science five years ago. I was definitely a lurker in many groups before I kind of like found my voice. And then I just realised like how welcoming the community is and like how much that I have learnt from members of the community as well. So I'm really pleased that we're all thinking about how we can be as inclusive as possible to the communities that we support.
James Robinson:And I think you used that word welcoming and I think that is really important. And I think it is something that's really evident and apparent when you join a community like this, like there are so many online communities, and social networks, and groups where it's very easy and you can very quickly kind of you know... result in sort of animosity or kind of misunderstandings or you know, people that know best sort of charging in. And I, generally, it's not all the time, but generally, it's just not something that you see very often in most of these communities that you can be part of. I think you still have to have like values and expectations and kind of rules of how to engage that people should adhere to. So you still need that robust kind of framework, but I think you know people are just looking for a genuine supportive connection. And can all appreciate what it's like to be the new person in the group, I think. And so I yeah. I was going to ask in a second about what we'd say to kind of get people into communities. And I think it is that point. For me, it's that these communities are so welcoming and you can join and no one's going to judge you for what you do or don't know, or what you do and don't do, and what practice you have. There just going to be there to help. What would you, and James and Kaye if you had someone that was maybe not part of a community or your kind of trying to recruit people into the community. What, what do you say to them? How do you kind of help them make that decision to join?
James Abela:I mean, it's a very low barrier for us normally I say "Would you like to join?" The only thing we ask for really is your mobile phone number. And you know, you're free to join you're also free to leave instantly if it's not for you. What I do warn them is that there are a lot of messages and to use the WhatsApp mute feature if it's a bit much for you. But you're welcome to join you're working together, but honestly, internationally, there are no other choices. If you want support in computer science, you have one choice and it's us. So, you know, it's an easy sell. And it is because we've tried to lower that barrier to as low as we possibly can.
Kaye North:Yeah, I think too it's about just saying to people, you know, "Just come in and try." Because if it's not for you, we're not forcing you to stay. If you're not getting something out of it. You're welcome to go. You know, there's no expectations. You don't have to jump in and comment on everything or give your advice. You can just be an observer for a little while and see what makes you feel comfortable. I do a little bit too within our Code Club community of seeking feedback from them to say "What is it that you're trying to get from here that we're not giving you just yet?" Or "Have we missed something?" Or "Was there something that's been really great that you'd like to have happen again?" So I think getting that feedback as well, being able to enable all those changes and provide what they're looking for. I think it's also really helpful.
Zoe Davidson:And I think sometimes by asking for that feedback you start that conversation with someone in the community and then makes them feel more comfortable to ask those questions that they may have or to start those conversations. It's like a almost like a starting point for someone. I always think that when I go to an in-person event, I always kind of like a bit of a job because it makes me feel a bit more comfortable. So be it making tea but actually, you know, ask me a question to help with some feedback is like the equivalent of it as an in-person event.
James Robinson:So we asked our learners what CS communities they were part of and what they saw as the benefits. And Zoe we got a really nice reply didn't we?
Zoe Davidson:We did! We heard from Yolanda who is in America and she is part of the Computer Science Teacher Association there. And she said that when she was the only person teaching computer science in her school the resources that she found online were a total lifesaver to her. Which I think is a brilliant example of how you know, that sense of community coming to help her when she needed that help.
James Robinson:Yeah, and I think really resonates with some of the things we've discussed with our guest today. We also heard from the Computing Department at Ashfold School who talked about them being a member of the Digital Schoolhouse Community. They meet up regularly, they share approaches, and talk about how to engage children in computer science. And they also mention other champions group from Micro-Bit Education, which is an international group and they kind of talk about how much they've learnt from both of those communities. If you have a question for us or a comment about our discussion today than you can reach out via podcast@helloworld.cc or you can tweet us @helloworld_edu. My thanks to James and Kaye for sharing their time, experience, and expertise with us today. We'll be back in two weeks with another episode of the Hello World podcast. So Zoe, what did we learn today?
Zoe Davidson:I just have really enjoyed hearing everybody's perspective of how we have, like the online WhatsApp groups supporting people internationally and the sharing of skills that happens in there. Along with Kaye talking about how the groups in Australia definitely help to reduce that feeling of isolation that you may have when you're starting out on your journey or if you're just working on your own in a school or in a club and how both of these environments bring people together. I think it's a brilliant place for people to be talking to each other either online or in person and they both have amazing value.
James Robinson:And for me, I think what I took away was we are part of so many amazing communities and just spending time today chatting with two individuals from such amazing communities has just been really energizing and fantastic. So thank you to both of our guests. Bye-bye!