This week we're discussing the benefits of running an extracurricular club for both the learners that attend, and you, the educator or volunteer that runs them. These clubs come in many different shapes and sizes, and in this episode, James and Laura, along with guests, explore Code Clubs, CoderDojo clubs, esports clubs, and many more in between. We also delve into some of the barriers to setting up an extracurricular club and how some of these can be overcome.
Full show notes:
https://helloworld.raspberrypi.org/articles/whats-the-value-of-extracurricular-clubs
This week we're discussing the benefits of running an extracurricular club for both the learners that attend, and you, the educator or volunteer that runs them. These clubs come in many different shapes and sizes, and in this episode, James and Laura, along with guests, explore Code Clubs, CoderDojo clubs, esports clubs, and many more in between. We also delve into some of the barriers to setting up an extracurricular club and how some of these can be overcome.
Full show notes:
https://helloworld.raspberrypi.org/articles/whats-the-value-of-extracurricular-clubs
On your own, late at night, eating Doritos, drinking energy drinks, playing against the computer.
Lisa Brown:Quite a lot of parents now they actually sit down with the kids and learn together.
Laura Holborow:A cub can offer a different experience and spark interest in fun in your subject area.
James Robinson:I'm quite happy sat at home playing a bit of Monkey Island by myself. Welcome back to Hello World a podcast for educators, interested in Computing, and digital making. I'm James Robinson Computing educator and extracurricular Evangelist.
Laura Holborow:Hello, I'm Laura Holborow. A learning manager at the Raspberry Pi Foundation, former computing teacher, and a busy working mum. In fact, James, I'm quite looking forward to having this opportunity to sit down and talk to you quietly with our guests this morning. Although I hear we're discussing Esports so perhaps relaxing is not on the agenda and I need my trainers instead.
James Robinson:I hope you bought the right kit, Laura.
Laura Holborow:I'm not sure about that. As ever, we really value your comments and feedback which you can share at hello world.cc/podcastfeedback.
James Robinson:So this week, we really want to delve into some of the many varied extracurricular activities that our Learners can participate in whether it be a coding club, a meet-up, a CoderDojo, an Esports competition or something in between, we want to explore the value and benefits of these activities both for the participants themselves but also what we as the facilitators get out of them. So Laura, what's been your experience as a teacher, or former teacher of running extracurricular activities?
Laura Holborow:So, as a Computing teacher and subject leader for many years before joining the foundation, I have had many experience of running extracurricular clubs for students ranging from CC4G Computer Club for Girls, that is showing my age to listeners and or to Cyber Club, where students competed in the Cyber Discovery competition. Having left teaching fairly recently, I've also decided to volunteer and set up and run a Code Club at my daughter's primary school, and there's some kind of selfish and non selfish reasons for doing that. So being a bit selfish, I wanted to keep my toe in the water a little bit in terms of still working with with students and being in the school environment and then on an unselfish, you know, reason is getting to, you know, see the students benefit from that Code Club and getting to experience some of the fantastic resources that there are. In terms of thinking about benefits for after-school Provisions, As an educator it really gives you the opportunity to build some relationships with students. And when I was a subject leader, I found that that had a real impact on the uptake of students at GCSE and A-Level for my subject. And it's also really good for students, who find the formal classroom settings difficult. A club can offer a different experience and Spark interest and fun in your subject area. James, I know that you're a former teacher too what's your experience been of running extracurricular sessions?
James Robinson:Oh, now you're asking me to think back to, I've been out of the classroom now for 8 years or so. And I was thinking about this earlier on and trying to make a little list of the different activities from, I mean, not, not a Computing thing but I ran a Lego Club for a long time, which was just literally playing with Lego after school. But yeah. So I think I've always in my teaching sort of years, run clubs of different forms. So, we did a LEGO League Club. We've done various lunchtime clubs and it sort of computing games club. We built things think one year we we took part in a pilot to test out some physical Computing resources called Gadgeteer. And yeah, I think I really and I've really enjoyed the variety that, that kind of brings, it kind of, I mean, very selfishly. As you say, there's those sort of motivations. Sometimes it allows me to kind of explore a topic without having to do it myself. So like, oh, I've got a server here and I've never played Minecraft. Hey kids, I'm going to set up the server then you're going to play Minecraft and teach it to me or like let's play with this kit and the kids will explore it. And then kind of I can kind of learn vicariously through their experiences. I've quite enjoyed that and yeah, since since leaving teaching, I've like you, I've sought opportunities to do more of this. So for a few years, I ran a Code Club in my local school. And then I regularly volunteer at one of the Cambridge Dojos which I really enjoy. It's a really great opportunity to spend time with young people to build those relationships, to see them outside of a school setting. And I think all of these sort of Club experiences, I think there's something really great about kind of fostering a community and in my current work that's like, very like like the local area Community. When I was a teacher, I had my little, my little group, my little, my groupies my little sort of team of computing, kind of peeps that would come to my clubs and we sort of built a really good relationship. And yeah. So there were lots of reasons that I did that. And then again, just another sort of selfish reason was it was a really great way of testing out new ideas and sort of testing my practice in a slightly lower Stakes way. So, yeah, I think extracurricular clubs are fantastic and really worth everyone's spending time, and, you know, and doing and benefit everyone involved. But you don't just have to listen to myself and Laura waxing lyrical about about extracurricular clubs. We are joined today by some amazing guests. Our first guest is Lisa Brown. She's an experienced software developer, and Champion for not one but two CoderDojos in Manchester and Cheadle. Lisa, welcome. Now, you clearly love volunteering for your Dojos. Can you tell us a bit about your experience in the Dojos you run and why you love volunteering?
Lisa Brown:Being a software developer I wanted to introduce my daughter who was eight at the time when we first started to coding. And so we heard about this Manchester CoderDojo that's starting. We thought we could go along and as soon as I walked in, I think I started helping out, you know, just particularly with just helping set up the equipment. But there's just so many Keen youngster there who who so interested to learn coding. So it was really satisfying, helping out.
Laura Holborow:Also joining us is Tom. Tom is an experienced teacher as well as one of the leading Global voices on Esports in and education, he has led the development of the British Esport Student Champs and the BTECs in Esports, welcome, Tom. Esports is something that many of us will have heard about but perhaps not have experienced what are Esports and how did you originally get involved Tom?
Tom Dore:Hi thank you for inviting me on. Look, So Esports is defined as being organised competitive video gaming and it's always human versus human. So it's not the stereotypical in your bedroom, on your own late at night, eating Doritos, drinking energy drinks playing against the computer. This is teams of people playing against other teams of people exactly as you would in a traditional sport. I got into this not because I'm a massive gamer, I could be classed I guess as a retro gamer playing on Super Nintendo and Sega Mega Drive and things like that 20, 25 years ago. I got into this because I'm still a teacher I've taught for the last 18 years across the full spectrum of State, independent and alternative provision Centres. And I got into this because throughout my teaching career, I've wanted to see the thing that's the hook, how do we hook, how do we engage, how do we motivate young people? Now, for some that is through sport, through some that's music, through some that's drama. All those different type of things. For a lot of young people now, video games provides that opportunity to motivate and engage. That's why I got into Esports, I was teaching in a very tough School in and around Reading linked to linked to Reading Football Club and obviously football was the massive hook for a lot of our students, a lot didn't play though. And so I tried to borrow load of Xboxes from Microsoft who're obviously based in the Thames Valley to set up a FIFA Club that's sort of seven or eight years ago. I then gone and started to work for British Esports the UK's National we're the UK's National body for Esports we're not for profit and I established the pilots then that have led on to this to the Student Champs that you've mentioned there. So the Student Champs now we're in our fifth year, we've got 580 school and college teams playing on a Wednesday after school in exactly the same way as you do for traditional activities for traditional sport. So, for me, Esports allows young people to engage with... It Meets young people where they are it allows them to follow their passion, it allows them to gain recognition in their school environment for representing their school or representing their college in the same way as we do, for the traditional sports teams or for people acting in the play or for people performing in the orchestra. Young people who are into All Things digital, all things Tech, all things gaming, now, get that opportunity to do that through Esports. We can talk later as well If you like about the the career Pathways the opportunities that now exists to All Things digital, all things Tech, all things STEM linked as well. But in essence, Esports organised competitive video gaming human versus human team versus team. So young people are developing all the same, holistic skills, the teamwork, the leadership, the communication the decision making, problem solving, strategic thinking. All those things, those holistic character skills that we recognise through traditional team-based activities happen through Esports happen through video gaming.
Laura Holborow:I think it's really interesting that you're talking about that sense of community with your club and the fact that that's come across, you know, through all the different types of clubs that we've talked about so far. So, that's really interesting, Tom, thank you.
James Robinson:And I guess a question that I would ask both of you. And I've got some specific questions about Esports and the types of games, but I think, first of all, let's think about that Community. Who is it that we're sort of attracting to these different kind of experiences? So like in Lisa's case, what kind of young people are, we serving through the CoderDojos that you run? Is it a certain age group? Is it quite gender split? What's their sort of the passion that brings them there? What's that hook as Tom was saying and similarly for you Tom like what kinds of students are we attracting to these kind of experiences but let's maybe start with Lisa. What are the makeup of your Dojos? And what brings the kids there?
Lisa Brown:Yeah we mainly have 8 to 14 year olds although they tend to bring the sibling comes along. So we do have like, five, six year olds up to 18s. Mainly the parent sees that the kids are really into Tech stuff or they've seen, they've heard about coding, want the kids to find out about it. But then what the kids come along and they try coding and it's amazing, they can create their own games and that's how they come back. We have sort of 40/60 split on some 40% girls and it's sort of declines us as they get a bit older.
James Robinson:And so, you sort of suggest there, I think it sounds a bit like the the, there's a parental kind of involvement there, instead of driving, or bringing the Ninjas, we call them, don't we at CoderDojo like bringing the Ninjas along to the Dojo sessions. So how important do you think that parental engagement is, is it, is it easy to engage in a Dojo if you don't have parents that are kind of connected to the tech world, for example.
Lisa Brown:Well, mainly it's just getting the Ninjas to the Dojo, the parents got to commit time and you know, be and taking them to the Dojo but I find I find the quite a lot of parents now they actually sit down with the kids and learn together and you know, that's really satisfying that they're learning to, you know, we you know building different teaching at different age groups. How about you Tom what kind of what kind of young people are attracted into the Esports World?
Tom Dore:Everyone. It is an open is open to all, essentially. It is aging neutral, it's gender neutral, it's additional need neutral. So you can have young people in wheelchairs playing alongside Able Body friends in a way that simply other school other activities simply cannot do so it's hugely open and hugely welcoming. It's not your stereotypical techie geeky kids. Okay. It is open to all. So for example, in my school, there is a young man who played in the Esports team. He was a sub 24 and a half Second 200 meter runner, he's a sub 11 and a half Second 100 Meter Runner, is a county tennis player and he's also in Esports team. So you've got a complete variety of young people. And yes, then there are the young people who are not representing the school or colleges in other activities. In the OverWatch team that we had one year of the six individuals playing in the team. Four of them didn't represent the school in any other activity, so, it is the opportunity to engage a wider demographic of young people. Young people who don't necessarily engage with other traditional activities, but are passionate about all things video games, all things these Esports, this allows them gives them that opportunity that doesn't currently exist for them. So that said I think it's important to say that it's still a male-dominated space as you know, unfortunately the tech industry is and so there's still a lot that is happening and a lot that needs to be done around equality and diversity, as well.
James Robinson:And before we move on because you mentioned in your discussions here, like two different games, you mentioned Fifa and you mentioned OverWatch. Now, I'm not going to pretend to be across, like, the latest kind of Trends in gaming. I'm quite happy, sat at home playing a bit of Monkey Island by myself that kind of thing, right? So, how much does the, the the game itself drive that engagement? You know, it does that is, you know, and what kind of games are being played? Are they kind of Shoot Em Up Style games, or are there other kind of games in the mix that might appeal to different groups?
Tom Dore:So in terms of different games that young people are playing there are different genres of Esports. Exactly Like they're different genres of music or different genres of film. And there are about 40 different video games titles that are known as Esports because they allow this human versus human team versus Team competition. So there are different genres. So the MOBA games are multi online battle arena games. There's the Battle Royale games like Fortnight for example, or Pub G. Sports based games obviously like FIFA and Rocket league and then the FPS, the first person shooter games like like OverWatch, like Call of Duty, like Rainbow Six, there are age ratings for these different games in exactly the same way there are for film there, those age ratings exist for video games as well. So, it's very important for educators and for parents to understand that and the typical maybe tabloid headline of my nine year old son's addicted to Fortnight. Well, Fortnight's got an age rating of 12. So nine-year-olds parents shouldn't be allowing nine years to play Fortnight, for example. These are all considerations, that parents, Educators, youth leaders who have got to understand when it comes to Esports. It's worth mentioning that in the same way that with traditional sport, I might say I love football. I don't really like rugby. I'm not interested in rugby, it's exactly the same with Esports and you'll get individuals liking one title And not being interested in anything else or might be interested in one genre of Esports. But absolutely is not interested in seeing it in watching anything else in the same way As we as I've just said, you know, I will happily sit and watch football. Do I want to go to an Athletics tournament or go and watch snooker? Absolutely, no thank you very much. Okay. It's the same thing with Esports people have their passions. People follow this, follow their teams, follow their games, follow individual players of those games. And so that, that channels the passion channels the interest that way.
Laura Holborow:So, Lisa Tom's talking there about like, sparking an interest and, you know, particularly focusing on particular parts that students really enjoy. What do you think makes your students want to come back to your Dojo sessions?
Lisa Brown:We, in our Dojo, it's not like a classroom. We have different spaces, running different events, different type of exercise. So you've got a space for learning Scratch, you got a space for learning Python, you got a physical, we've got a physical Computing area, we've got LEGO robots, so every time they come, they don't they can decide on the day what they want to do. So sometimes they feel like building Lego and that's that's all they do. But they get to program it after and then and they could chop and change while they're there. So I think every time they go, they experience a different way of learning coding. So it's not it's not the same every time.
Laura Holborow:And I guess that element of choice is very different from the formal classroom setting that they might be, you know, they might be used to in terms of their Computing education. So you know, so that that freedom is probably a great selling point.
Lisa Brown:Yeah. I think the parents want to treat them like in the classroom but we deliberately set it up like a youth club just because they sit down and learn all week. So it's time to make it fun.
James Robinson:And I guess as well like you can you can bring different levels of sort of structure and support depending on the on the Learners needs, right? If they want complete agency and choice, then you let them. But if they want a bit more of a facilitated choice, you might have to have a bit more of a conversation about, what are you interested in? What kind of things do you like? Would you like to go and do this? That's that certainly the kind of the nature of some of the conversations that we have at our Dojo as well.
Lisa Brown:Yeah, there's lots of worksheets work examples available on the Raspberry Pi website. So if they want to learn at their own pace, they can just pick an exercise they are interested in and yeah do it their way.
James Robinson:So both of you are sort of running different extracurricular activities and obviously we've all, you know, we've all talked a little bit about our experience, what do you think are some of the challenges that that volunteers, Educators, parents, might face when trying to get involved or startups, you know, an extracurricular activity. Now we could talk generally or specifically about, you know, about CoderDojos about Code Clubs or about Esports clubs, how what are the challenges and how do we overcome them? And I'm going to go, I'm going to go back to Lisa, first on that one.
Lisa Brown:I think looking for venue, CoderDojo is free. So you really need a venue that will provide their space for free, that's got Wi-Fi, ideally, and I think people worry about having volunteers, but I find that they they do appear when when it's starts up. So that's that's not an issue. I find that I've got parents coming from quite a distance to come to our Dojo because there aren't any near them. So my recommendation is, if you're thinking about starting one, then do do seriously think about it.
James Robinson:Or perhaps, come along with, visit your Dojo and see, see how it's done, or get some inspiration and talk through some of the practicalities, right?
Lisa Brown:Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, do feel free to contact me if you want to come along. Or just have a chat.
James Robinson:Yeah Yeah and it's this Manchester is not in your Locale though there are CoderDojos all around the world that you can go and visit and they're all very, very friendly and welcoming. Tom similar I mean one of the questions I guess for the Esports kind of. I mean it's same kind of question I think for CoderDojos, but equipment, licensing, gaming like the the must you know there are some costs associated with all of these kind of activities. What does that look like in the Esports world? What the challenges there?
Tom Dore:Yeah, absolutely, look Kit is the main barrier for participation in schools and colleges I naively thought when I first got into this I we've got rooms full of PCS at school. This is going to be this is going to be easy, whereas in reality, they might the vast majority runoff Central Graphic servers rather than having discrete graphics cards in machines themselves. Now for institutions and centres where they're running games design courses, Creative Media courses where they're using, you know, Photoshop and Adobe suites and all that sort of stuff.,It's okay. But for the vast majority, certainly of secondary schools, They don't necessarily have the machines that are powerful enough to do this, so that is, that is a real barrier and it's not a question of saying to senior leadership teams of schools. Can you give us an extra, how many tens of thousands to upgrade our PC suites, to be able to play video games? It's not about that, but hopefully over time as we are trying to develop Future Ready skills, future Ready citizens, we need to have the equipment that allows those young people, allows us as teachers to develop those skills in young people. Gives them access to the software, The hardware, the packages that they need to be using. But if we haven't got machines in schools that allow us to do that well we're shooting ourselves in the foot, anyway. So anyway, the whole kit issue is a much wider conversation around what schools have and do and do not have access to essentially. So there's that aspect of it, then there is in terms, there is a barrier still there are certain misconceptions and preconceptions around video gaming and the screen time and things like that that we do have to address. There is issues around Online safety that we need to be very cognisant of. At British Esports we very much to promote balance and moderation. This is not the only thing that young people should be doing. It's one of many things that young people should be doing or have access to, in their time because it is a social activity, you're doing with your friends, you're doing with other people. It is actually very positive for your mental health in terms of interaction with other people, being with friends, even if it's an online environment. So when we're feeling quite bullish, it's when we speak to parents is, do you want your child sitting down watching passive media on a screen or you know watching YouTube kit clips of cats or repeats of Celebrity Love Island or are you happy with them playing with their friends in a team environment where they're communicating with each other and having fun with friends? That's the sort of way we try and we try and Pitch it if you like but in balance in moderation as part of a healthy, balanced lifestyle.
Laura Holborow:So Tom, when I started to run my club at my daughter's primary school, I approached the head teacher and I, you know, I kind of volunteered to set up and run the club and, you know, there was no hesitation on their part at all, they were obviously really keen for that to happen. There only reservation was, you know what extra support are you going to need in terms of a member of Staff or a volunteer that's going to help? And my question to you kind of is what kind of skills or experienced do you think your volunteers or teachers need to run these Esports clubs?
Tom Dore:Sure, it could be anything you could get people who are massive Gamers themselves, members of Staff, who are massive gamers who think this is the best thing in the world. Why didn't I, and a thing that we get a lot is I wish I had this when I was at school. I wish I had these opportunities. And so in the same way that different staff follow their own passions in school in terms of running clubs and extracurricular things, you know, I'm my, I'm a passionate Sports / sports fan, myself and sports player traditional Sports, so I've always coached Cricket. I've run, golf teams, I used to work in outdoor education. So, I've what I've taken school trips to Mongolia to Namibia to Venezuela, you know, I now run Esports. Some of it is following your own passions, some of it is actually seeing how you can engage young people and wanting to give those young people that opportunity, even if you're not the expert, even if you don't know really much about that area, you want to facilitate that for the young people. This is where Esports and video gaming, can cause issues because the young people know a lot more than the vast majority of adults staff. And so if as a member of Staff, you are comfortable and confident being a facilitator, not being an expert, then that's absolutely fine. If you're facilitating experiences from the young people, giving them leadership opportunities to run this themselves. You're just facilitating in that environment. So there is a huge range of different people. You could even get external people coming in in the same way you get external people coming in to coach football or coach rugby and work with school teams that way the same thing can also happen with Esports as well. So in terms of senior leaders and things like that as well. If we can get them beyond the point of it, seeing it as being just video gaming. And look at the opportunities that exist to engage to motivate the young people. That's when we're having real success with senior leaders and the decision-makers in and around education, when they can look Beyond it being screen time and video gaming.
James Robinson:And Lisa similar question, I think for you, like, I've certainly our experience at the Dojo. Is that the volunteers that come have a real variety of skills and the Dojo needs that right? What, what kind of skills do your volunteers bringing? Are they all really technically minded or excellent at facilitating things? Or what does that sort of skills mix look like?
Lisa Brown:Most of our volunteers are developers or working in the tech industry. When you're helping the kids you don't necessarily need to know how to code. It's sort of more listening skill. You know, they got a problem and just by listening that by them talking through their problem with you, they normally solve it solve the issue by themselves. We do get a lot of students who want to learn about, want to give back.
James Robinson:Yeah, I think that that point about just being able to listen some because we have some really young kids come to our Dojo like five-year-olds and sometimes it's just having an adult which can that can the can read some of the the text or the instructions is enough and and we'll just sort of help them navigate tabs on Windows those kinds of things are really really useful. And then do you do what about the sort of the admin side, right? Because a lot of like advertising and promoting and ticketing and all that kind of thing. Do you handle of that yourselves or do you as in you or do other volunteers within your Dojo? help out with that as well?
Lisa Brown:I do handle it by myself, but after 10 years, it's sort of quite autonomous now. So it's learning how to use a ticketing system, answering emails because we get a lot parents just finding out, "oh, We just found out about CoderDoJo can you tell us? So there's a lot of that.
Laura Holborow:Lisa that might sound a bit daunting for somebody who might be wanting to set up, you know, a club for the their first time. What kind of support is available for somebody who might be interested in starting a club like yours?
Lisa Brown:The CoderDojo website has got a lot of resources for helping you to start. I think there's quite a few videos and tutorial courses so and obviously just just email somebody or email me and we'll be there to help.
James Robinson:Tom I guess it's similar question for those looking to start in the world of Esports. What supports available for them?
Tom Dore:Absolutely look I would 100% suggest you go and visit our website britishesports.org, huge range of different advice and guidance around if you are looking to work in schools or colleges both on the competitive side of Esports, through the Student Champs or whether you're looking at academic courses through things like the B-tech, for example, there's lots of information there about career Pathways and different opportunities within the Esports industry itself. Lots of advice to parents to different Community groups. We've done lots of work in different areas now, for example, the Duke of Edinburgh's award, you can have Esports. If you play for your school Esports team, you can have Esports signed off as a skill, as part of your Duke of Edinburgh's award, For example. We've done work with alternative in alternative provision settings. We've done a project with cops versus the police cops versus kids Sorry, in North Yorkshire, where we popped up an an Esports venue in an area of in North Yorkshire, for the police to work alongside the local kids in the community to host games. And so broke down barriers that young people on these estates that they were that The police the community officers were working on, saw the police in a different light because they were sitting down with them playing video games. There's huge, huge opportunities here to use Esports as a vehicle, to develop all sorts of holistic, skills, and develop a holistic skills, holistic knowledge, to do good things, essentially to use the power and use the interest that lies behind Esports and video gaming as that vehicle, as the hook to motivate and engage young people.
Laura Holborow:Okay. So Tom could you give us some information about what kind of future opportunities you think clubs like yours offers students?
Tom Dore:So in the same way that traditional sports clubs offer a potentially a small very very small minority the opportunity to go on to become professional players. The same thing happens in Esports. There are will be a very small minority of young People who go on to become professional Esports players, we've just had that happen. One of the students who played in the Championships, a couple of years ago has just been signed by professional team. However, the main opportunities around the career Pathways that this then then opens up in the Esports industry. Yeah, absolutely. But also then, in the wider linked industry, the STEM Industries, the digital, the creative Industries. So for example, the video game industry is worth more on an annual basis then the film industry and the music industry combined on a global basis. So when parents or when teachers just look at it, oh you're video gaming waste of time. Well actually no you're not, it's not a waste of time, the industries that now and the career Pathways that are now open for young people who have a passion about video games and all aspects of video games. As I said, linking to STEM linking to digital, linking to creative skills, the opportunities are huge.
James Robinson:Thanks. And Lisa, similarly, with your Dojo. What's been your experience of, like what does this sort of bring and how does it impact upon your Ninja's kind of career paths and aspirations? What's been that, what's that look like for you?
Lisa Brown:Yeah, because we've been going 10 years. The Ninjas I'm in touch with quite a lot of them have gone on to technical jobs. So, I think we got us a guy whose software developer and he's over in New York. Certainly a lot of them are doing STEM subjects in universities and things So yeah it's it's lovely to see that we sort of ignited the passion that they've taken on to their future careers.
James Robinson:And I guess they're also, there's that exposure on a regular basis to Industry professionals like yourself who can act as role models and sort of talk a bit more about what about what you do in your day job, right?
Lisa Brown:Yeah. And to see that, you know, we're quite normal, human beings not geeky nerds that we get portrayed on media's.
James Robinson:Yes. Absolutely. Although I think we can all embrace our geeky nerdy personas from time to time. I think there's definitely there's more to us than just that I think, Yeah. Well thank you both for the conversation today. I found it really fascinating really interesting and I think you know I'm really inspired to go in to visit some more Dojos and to investigate whether I can be an Esports Champion. So if you've been listening to our episode today and have questions or comments about our discussion and you could email us at podcast@helloworld.cc or you can tweet us at, HelloWorld_EDU. My thanks to Lisa and Tom for sharing their time experience and expertise with us today. And we'll be back in two weeks time with more fantastic guests. So Laura, what did we learn today?
Laura Holborow:We learned how extracurricular clubs can help Foster local communities, we learnt the range of types of extracurricular clubs that are available and are on offer and we learnt what impact extracurricular clubs can have on young people.
James Robinson:And I learned that I didn't need to bring my kit.